School Me On Collectable Hand Guns

[Charles Freeborn]

I've got a one-family-owner (mine) .32 Auto that I might be talked out of for the right price. My great-uncle bought it when he was in the service - probably between WW1 & Korean era. Not sure what branch he was in - likely the reserves. VG original condition. Fully usable.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

Except for the fact that it isn't completely accurate.

Agreed. Probably a bit more cynical than I needed to be. Yes, one can still find that rare treasure whose owner has no real idea what they hold, but with Al Gore's invention of the Interwebs, that's getting nothing but harder and harder. That, and there has always been a moral side to such dealings...

Fact is, today, the average duffer at the gun show or on some on-line auction site will have a pretty good idea of what he has and of its value. It's just so easy for a seller to research one piece before he puts it on the table. If he has not, in this day and age, he will likely over - not under - value it anyway. At least until he brings it home a few times.

Anyway, guns do remain a solid investment, and are way more fun than bonds. The big gains for the average collector, however, are just unrealistic anymore. Like I said, the items themselves are just too well vetted, and the big playas make the rules and set the prices. At a certain level - a profitable level - it very much becomes their game. They don't like to lose. As long as you are content to stay in AAA, or maybe AA (if not B) league, you can have a lot of fun without potentially losing your ass when one of the sharks bites it off.

[aigel]

Thanks so much for the thoughts on the subject, your experiences and some suggested pieces to target. One thing that I need to check on further is the handgun laws in CA. If I am not mistaken, I cannot buy an off roster gun unless it is face to face private party. So, this will slow my efforts significantly - basically have to watch local ads. Most local guns being moved are shooters, not much of collector interest tends to come up. When there is a collector item, they tend to be priced high and sit, so maybe there is a chance to go in with a low ball offer after a few weeks.

I think to start, I'll be on the lookout for some n-frames and also will keep an eye on the 1911s. Likely there is not much to come up, but the hunt is half the fun.

Keep the suggestions coming!

George

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Agreed. Probably a bit more cynical than I needed to be. Yes, one can still find that rare treasure whose owner has no real idea what they hold, but with Al Gore's invention of the Interwebs, that's getting nothing but harder and harder. That, and there has always been a moral side to such dealings...

Fact is, today, the average duffer at the gun show or on some on-line auction site will have a pretty good idea of what he has and of its value. It's just so easy for a seller to research one piece before he puts it on the table. If he has not, in this day and age, he will likely over - not under - value it anyway. At least until he brings it home a few times.

Anyway, guns do remain a solid investment, and are way more fun than bonds. The big gains for the average collector, however, are just unrealistic anymore. Like I said, the items themselves are just too well vetted, and the big playas make the rules and set the prices. At a certain level - a profitable level - it very much becomes their game. They don't like to lose. As long as you are content to stay in AAA, or maybe AA (if not B) league, you can have a lot of fun without potentially losing your ass when one of the sharks bites it off.

Boy oh boy this is gona be strike number deuce in this Thread for youse....

At the begining of December I picked this up:

https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Springfield-Armory-Model-1903-Rifle-30-06-Cal/33377220/LotDetail.asp?lid=33377220&rfpb=0#Top

. Bought it sight unseen, called the auctioneer to put his eyeballs on it before bidding. Consignor brought in a trove of WW1 veteran of the 28Th Division memorabilia and equipment along with this rifle, a GEW 98 and some bayonets. Got satisfactory answers, thought it could possibly be a straight 1923 NM. Took a chance.

Well it finally came today, and guess what it is a 1923 NM that is not only straight but in very minty condition. Mostly a few blemishes on the stock. Star gauged barrel, Star Gauge number under hand guard on barrel, NM type rear sight, polished bolt and receiver followers, light with no creep trigger pull. Plus all other standard marking are correct as well.

I just gotta say WOW!!!!! I have looked for years trying to find a straight interwar years 1903 Springfield. I had bought two others that didn't meet my standard so they found new homes. This one is it, came out of the wood work probably from the family of the Vet who it just didn't matter to anymore (The vet almost certainly bought this rifle through the DCM). Almost all that you see out there are arsenal reconditioned and reworks done from the 1920's through the 1940's. Let alone being a NM, most NM's that you see have shot out barrels from being used in Matches. This one's barrel is still strong. So being literally a attic find it is quite rare.

As far as the bidding went, I led all the pre bidders going into the auction. That means that no "Big Player" had noticed it. So my competition came from a floor bidder who had eyeballed the 03 which is a good sign. But thought it was just a clean run of the mill post war 03 and bid to that value. Well guess what 3X to 5X money on this one. This one you will have to pry out of my cold dead hands.

[Jeff Higgins]

Tabby, how can that be "strike" number anything on this thread for me? Your story is the perfect example of what I've been talking about. You are a guy who watches this stuff like a hawk, has educated himself in the various nuances that add or detract value, and you got unusually lucky by your own admission. After a lifetime of searching at that.

If George is willing to commit at the level at which you have committed, willing to educate himself to the level of a collector like yourself, he, too, may just get lucky a time or two in his lifetime as well.

Far more common, however, are the guys who bought that once in a lifetime National Match Springfield, only to find out it was faked. There are more of them in circulation today than the Armory ever made. Or how about "Custer battlefield" Trapdoors - my God, if Custer really had the number of troops at his disposal that are represented by "authentic" Trapdoors "used in the Battle of Little Big Horn", he would have absolutely kicked their asses. Or how about "Singer" 1911's, Walker Dragoons, and on and on? And that's only the blatant fraud. The whims of the collector market are even more hazardous to navigate, and virtually impossible to predict. Unless one can rise to a level where one helps steer the market, which is pretty rarified air. Hell, even with your expertise and connections, you are still at their mercy. Guys like George even more so.

[aigel]

I have to agree with you Jeff, on the post from today but also your earlier one (#11) on the philosophy of buying and owning guns you shoot. I am working full time and have a lot of other interests, so I don't have time to educate myself to the level a collector does. Note that I wasn't asking to become a full on collector in the OP rather than some guidance what would be 'collectible' to at least ensure a decent investment. Investment meaning buying something that holds its value, at a minimum staying with inflation.

I have done a bit more digging since my OP and come to the conclusion that I'll just buy what I consider fun and can come across locally. I.e. non lock smiths, aiming at a .44 mag, an older 1911 in .45 or .38 or Browning HP, maybe a nice .22 pistol, a Ruger Alaskan in 454 Casul etc.

I already described the CA handicap of buying used handguns with the roster, so I expect to acquire at a snails pace!

G

[onewhippedpuppy]

I think Jeff has a great perspective. Unless you want to become an expert like Tabs, stick with buying what you enjoy and enjoy it! As he said, any quality firearm will at a minimum hold its value over time even after shooting it.

[vash]

Originally Posted by aigel

Thanks so much for the thoughts on the subject, your experiences and some suggested pieces to target. One thing that I need to check on further is the handgun laws in CA. If I am not mistaken, I cannot buy an off roster gun unless it is face to face private party. So, this will slow my efforts significantly - basically have to watch local ads. Most local guns being moved are shooters, not much of collector interest tends to come up. When there is a collector item, they tend to be priced high and sit, so maybe there is a chance to go in with a low ball offer after a few weeks.

I think to start, I'll be on the lookout for some n-frames and also will keep an eye on the 1911s. Likely there is not much to come up, but the hunt is half the fun.

Keep the suggestions coming!

George

if it isnt on the list, you have to have "one of your parents give you one".

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Tabby, how can that be "strike" number anything on this thread for me? Your story is the perfect example of what I've been talking about. You are a guy who watches this stuff like a hawk, has educated himself in the various nuances that add or detract value, and you got unusually lucky by your own admission. After a lifetime of searching at that.

If George is willing to commit at the level at which you have committed, willing to educate himself to the level of a collector like yourself, he, too, may just get lucky a time or two in his lifetime as well.

Far more common, however, are the guys who bought that once in a lifetime National Match Springfield, only to find out it was faked. There are more of them in circulation today than the Armory ever made. Or how about "Custer battlefield" Trapdoors - my God, if Custer really had the number of troops at his disposal that are represented by "authentic" Trapdoors "used in the Battle of Little Big Horn", he would have absolutely kicked their asses. Or how about "Singer" 1911's, Walker Dragoons, and on and on? And that's only the blatant fraud. The whims of the collector market are even more hazardous to navigate, and virtually impossible to predict. Unless one can rise to a level where one helps steer the market, which is pretty rarified air. Hell, even with your expertise and connections, you are still at their mercy. Guys like George even more so.

Hardly a lifetime. Several years though. If you want one now GB has one for 7.5k. I had one a few years back and sold it off because the bore was worn.

Further I dont watch like a hawk anymore. I just stumbled upon both the 629 and the 03. Both were good buys.

Oh yeah I have a Trapdoor Springfield that belonged to a 7th cavalry Medal of Honor receipant for bravery at the Battle of The Little Big Horn.

The point being is everything does not get vetted nor driven. Knowledge is indepensable though and is acquired over time.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

The point being is everything does not get vetted nor driven. Knowledge is indepensable though and is acquired over time.

Agreed, there are still guns that escape the notice of the serious (and not so serious) players, that still fall through the cracks. There always will be, really, regardless of what one collects. We still hear of remarkable "barn finds" in the car markets, for example. My point is that the "cracks" through which such items fall have gotten very, very small in this day and age. To the point where sheer, unadultered, blind ass luck is one's best friend, along with the knowledge to notice when it's struck.

[tabs]

The Blue Book Of Gun Values makes any dumb cluck into an expert...PAWN STARS...style.

So yes there are a lot of eyeballs on stuff. Stuff still shows up but now goes closer to retail at auction. For a dealer it is tougher, for a collector you just have to pay the freight. Gone are the days when you could find & buy a SW mdl 29 4 screw 8 3/8 in the wood case for $315.00. Today about 2100.

I think you are being a bit paranoid when you talk about markets being driven by the ubiquitous "Big Players" I have met or at least rubbed elbows with lots of guys at auctions with lots of money and guns. They do not seem so daunting to me. The money they have is not the determinant, it is what they like to collect and what they are willing to spend.

I was at the Little John auction where a phone bidder went 675K on Henry #6 that belonged to Secretary of the Navy Stanton...much later I asked John who bought it, he said a very wealthy individual that was buying the best stuff that he could buy. At the same auction a dealer I knew dropped 250K on a pair of Henry Derringer pocket pistols...later I asked him about them..He said he offered them to some of his clientele at 325K, where they balked..he did some research on them and found they were SoS Seward's pistols, he then turned them for 425K. His clients that turned them down then complained, "Why didn't you offer them to me."

What turned the antique or collectible firearms market was an article I believe in the WSJ back in 98 that said that firearms are a bonafide and a solid investment, much like art, antiques, autos, coins and stamps. Since then there has been a steady inflow of capital into the genre. Even during the crash in 08 collectible firearms withstood the onslaught, since then the inflow has accelerated as people seek a safe haven in hard assets when all else is fraught with risk or NO ROI.

So when I listen to you Boyz talk about this stuff I just have to shake my head and laugh.

.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

So when I listen to you Boyz talk about this stuff I just have to shake my head and laugh.

.

Problem is, you are so enamored with yourself on this, you are not listening to what anyone else is saying. If you were, you would recognize that you are merely parroting what others have said. After, of course, interjecting some completely irrelevant story about how much someone else paid for a museum quality piece.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Problem is, you are so enamored with yourself on this, you are not listening to what anyone else is saying. If you were, you would recognize that you are merely parroting what others have said. After, of course, interjecting some completely irrelevant story about how much someone else paid for a museum quality piece.

Frankly Tabs seems to be reinforcing your posts by refuting them. Because while I would say that I know more than the average American about firearms, my knowledge doesn't even scratch the surface when it comes to his posts.

[tabs]

And who are those guys? "and the big playas make the rules and set the prices." Spell it out..name names...

It is Joe Blow bidding against Mortimer Jones that determines what is paid by Higgins. The Protalariate mass of people sets prices in a supply and demand situation. If you and everybody else thinks it is hot then prices go up. Pythons for instance, Colt don't make them anymore, they are a quality deluxe item and the Walking Dead featured one (which made popular culture aware of them).

Back in I think 05 I was at a Little John auction where he had a slew of Pythons in the mix. The guy sitting in front of me was a Dealer or at least an agent of one...he had every Python marked out and was bidding on them..he was paying no more than $600 for one and he was getting them cause no one else really wanted them that bad. This guy knew he could make a bit of money on em at the time, or maybe he had an eye to the future knowing that anything Colt was good as gold?

Why does Henry #6 go for 675K, cause #1 was Lincoln's, is in the Smithsonian and is made of unobtainium...supply and demand runs price, and price separates the men from the boys. In other words lots and lots of people would pay a few thousand for Henry #6 so the price goes up until one guy says I just cant go another dime.

The mass of buyers drives prices, till only one guy is standing. YOu well know that you can have a one of a kind prototype that goes for practically nothing, why because no one wants it. So you need desirability with rarity to drive prices.

Who drives "desirability"..popular culture for one...Dirty Harry, Walking Dead

Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone TV series spiked interest in KY Rifles in the 50's and 60's.

"Saving Private Ryan"...and "Letters From Iwo Jima"...Spiked interest in WW2 US military and Japanese Military stuff...were they trying to spike the market, no they were making a WW2 movie.

Custers Last Stand has always captured the popular imagination, and as such the stuff which is in small supply goes for lots...So attachment to a important or notworthy historical event will drive prices...supply, demand/desirability.

Another thing that drives desirability is the old models of a marquee have already dried up in the market place and have gone out of sight ...Registered Mags have gone ballastic, so what is second best a 5 screw Pre Mdl 27, then a 4 Screw and then the 3 screws...next will be the 627's and then the Pre Locks. So people tend to collect what is still affordable, which then dries up in the market and spikes prices.

Also inflation or the cost of the new one drives up used prices.

Now the Blue Book comes along and posts prices paid, which reinforces them cause now everybody knows what he has is worth GOLD. People who have Blue Book in hand can now vett what they see...and price accordingly. If you care to notice some things actually go down in value cause their desirability or popularity has decreased or people are not wiling to pay that price. When a big collector dumps his collection he sometimes will flood the market..and prices drop. Single Shot rifles prices have declined because the collectors have grown old and are liquidating or are dying. Not only has demand dropped off but the supply has increased. The younger guys dont look twice at a SS or a antique muzzle loaders...they want Black evil spooons that shoot multiple rounds in seconds...Ouuuu.ouuuu

[Jeff Higgins]

That's all exceedingly basic stuff Tabby, but thanks for sharing. Any collector market operates just like that, for the most part. Nobody here is arguing that, least of all me. Until we get to the deep end of the pool, which is where my statements concerning the "big players" were directed, for the most part. Their affect does trickle into the shallower end, however. Someone had to be the first to pay $3,000 for a rather pedestrian Python that sold last year for $600.

Yes, there is the phenomena of the "feeding frenzy" (we have seen that in the early 911 world, we saw it in the housing bubble before it burst, etc.), which is another factor that will infect any collector market. I believe I used the word "fickle" to describe this kind of volatility.

So, in the end, it all boils down to the same advice first given in this thread. We've gone full circle.

[tabs]

Pythons crept up in price...

Take a look at Rock Island for the crazies...in a feeding frenzy.

The Rock Island Auction Blog: Why is the Colt Python So Popular?

from Gun Digest August 2015

The biggest battle of the day two took place over a first-year production Colt Python revolver, serial No. 170. Bids climbed outside of the typical range for a Python as two phone bidders squared off. When it was all over, the final bid stood at an astounding $17,250!


While things will get hot and then cool, the general firearms market chugs on and is not really subject to the same volatility as say Cars, Art and RE...Why because the market is relativity smaller and more homogeneous.

[varmint]

By the Numbers: The “Custer Range”


By Ben Phelan
POSTED: 4.11.2011

Colt 1873 revolver
A Colt 1873 revolver; another prominent weapon among the cavalry at Little Bighorn.

Colt 1873 revolver
This revolver's serial number — 5,629 — puts the weapon in the heart of the "Custer Range."

The Battle of the Little Bighorn is one of the most famous military engagements in US history, despite having ended in a rout of American troops. It marked the end of the career of George Armstrong Custer, a publicity-seeking Army officer, who, along with all of the men under his command, was killed in June of 1876 by a superior force of Lakota and Northern Cheyenne. Little Bighorn has been a continual source of debate among historians for 150 years, and excites a similar interest among firearms collectors, for whom the very possibility of a weapon’s having been used during the battle can bring a hefty bump in its value.

While bearing a number in the Custer range can dramatically increase a firearm’s value, it by no means proves the weapon was present at Little Bighorn.
A term of the trade, the “Custer range”, refers to the range of serial numbers borne by firearms whose dates of manufacture make it possible that they were issued to Custer and his men, and therefore used during Little Bighorn. There were two official firearms issued to soldiers during the period, each with a different Custer range: the Springfield “trap-door” carbine or rifle, whose range runs from 00001 to about 50,000; and the Colt 1873 revolver, whose range runs from 0001 to about 7,000.

While bearing a number in the Custer range does tend to dramatically increase a firearm’s value, it by no means proves the weapon was present at Little Bighorn. A quick look at the numbers shows why: there were around 210 men in Custer’s unit, but there are somewhere around 57,000 firearms in the Custer range. When you then consider that all the soldiers under Custer’s command died and that most of their weapons were carried off by the victorious Native Americans, who most likely used them until they were destroyed, the odds of finding a firearm with legitimate Little Bighorn provenance begin to seem dismally low.

And so they are. But if provenance can be established, you can expect a $6,500 to $7,500 Custer-range firearm’s value to rocket up an order of magnitude, to the neighborhood of $70,000.




You should buy one of these and then let me shoot it.

[tabs]

A Winchester 1866 now formerly owned by Glennwood Swanson sold at Julia's Auction I believe in 98 for 675K (a record at the time for a Winchester lever gun). In that auction a 1873 Trapdoor belonging to Swanson sold for 250K, In another Julia's auction a Trapdoor Carbine went for 98K...

Now why did these guns sell for so much, they have FORENSICALLY been proven to have been at the Little Big Horn. Each guns firing pin and extractor leaves a mark that is as individual as a finger print. Swanson I believe was the definitive collector of 7TH Calvary memorabilia.

Glennwood told me that late on Sunday at the Beinfield show here in LV a young guy walks in and shows him a Trapdoor carbine that Glenn buys that has an "H" carved in the stock with "Martini" on the forearm....well that carbine was was for Troop H and Martini was the last white man to see Custer alive as he was given a message to deliver to Benteen. That carbine proved to be at the Battle and was Martinis carbine..put a price on that if you will... (it is tied to a specific individual who had a prominent role in the battle).

I have talked to most of the principles who did the Archaeological digs at the Battle, and Glenwood. I got to know them because I have a Big 50 Caliber Springfield (2nd Allin Conversion) that belonged to Saddler Otto Voit..who was a 30 year veteran of Troop H, 7TH Cav, being awarded the Medal of Honor for bravery at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. He was at the Wa****a, the Big Horn Expedition, The Black Hills Expedition, LBH, Canyon Creek, Wounded Knee and finally down in AZ chasing renegade Apaches before retiring to Louisville.

The Dig guys and Glennwood thought I might have the Big 50 Springfield that belonged to Captain French...but alas my rifle did not prove to have been at the battle based upon the extant shell casings. A picture of my rifle now resides in the US Park Service file at the Big Horn National Monument on Otto Voit. It is what it is.

[tabs]

The thing about the Colt Calvary issued SAA's is that they were shipped in 50 gun wooden box lots to the various Calvary Regiments....thus if you have a known 7Th gun you can extrapolate the serial numbers up and down that 50 gun lot and can roughly determine if it was a 7TH gun. The same can be said if one is known to have been in another regiment. So that narrows the field a bit. Some @ 700 SAA's were issued as were 700 Trapdoor Carbines. The regiment had a strength at the Big Horn of 650 men, 260 were rubbed out, with about 210 being with Custer. Then there were scouts and other assorted Packers attached to the regiment.

Then various individuals carried their own weapons...Custer a Webley Bulldog and Remington Rolling Block. Captain French a 2ND Allin Conversion Trapdoor in 50/70.

I used to be able to tell you which SN ranges were likely to be Custer range SAA's

[tabs]

If you read through the books on the Archelogical digs done in the mid to late 1980's at the Last Stand site you can actually trace the movements of Indians during the battle by the shell casings they left behind..and there is that Winchester 73 that they can trace..

The Indians were well armed with a wide variety of firearms, including a large number of Winchester lever 66's and 73's. Think of it as being over whelmed by a swarm of bees..the Indians say it took about as long as it would take a hungry man to eat his dinner. It was a route, where Calhouns Troop skirmish line broke and ran with Captains Keoghs Troop's following running towards Custer on Last Stand Hill. At the end some 30Troopers led by Mitch Boyer tried to break out towards a ravine...none made it.

The other 6 Troops under Reno and Benteen held out surrounded on a bluff over looking the LBH river for the next day and a half...until the Indians skedaddled when the Gibbons relief column came up. There Voit and 3 other Troopers stood on the bluff firing and driwing Indian fire while 24 Troopers went down a ravine to get water. That was the action that Voit was awarded the MH for. Windrolph who was one of the four Troopers to draw fire was among the 14 cavalrymen to go with Benteen and Godffrey to view the massacre site. I believe Voit being one of Benteen's company H veterans was among those 14.