What Kind of Dog is This?

[Crowbob]

Baz,

Animals do not have rights, such as ownership. Nothing more than that.

I don't own a dog.

[flipper35]

So, does that mean that when you are done playing with your dog, cat, parakeet that you just toss it in the trash can dead or alive because you are tired of it just like any other inanimate object?

[Crowbob]

Yes, flipper.

In addition, I go around stomping puppies and tying cement blocks around kitties' necks and throw them in the river.

Sheesh. What is with you guys? Tell me who gets sued when a croc eats a duck? Tell me who goes to jail when a eagle eats a fish?

I am not gonna allow you guys to make even bigger fools of yourselves by my participating in this ridiculous argument. Humans, alone, have responsibilities. Among them are the humane treatment of animals.

Animals do not have rights.

[Matt Smith]

Crowbob, it's a strange arguement to me for sure that you're taking, because you imply that nothing has a right unless Humans allow it to have one?? You're speaking from a legal perspective only? (nothing to do with the pitbulls at this stage of course).

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by javadog

To simplify it: dogs are not capable of understanding our frame of reference. To have a successful relationship with the dog, you have to learn to view it as the dog does....

Let's take humans out of the equation...my issue is how some PBs interact with other dogs or a well estsblished pack. They present a risk that I will not expose my other casual dawgy buddies too...too many dog fights under my belt for you or anyone else to change my mind. It's what they have been bred to do....and they do.

....and it's vicious when they do, btdt too many times

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by javadog

To simplify it: dogs are not capable of understanding our frame of reference. To have a successful relationship with the dog, you have to learn to view it as the dog does. When we think of applying our moral and ethical standards to the relationship, we have already failed. The point I have made, time and again, is that most failures in a relationship between a human and dog originate with the human. It's why I think that most people should not "own" dogs and largely why we continue to have problems with them. Most people have no problems, in spite of themselves, as the dog is fully focused on trying to make the relationship successful. Sadly, I would say that most of the incidents involving a dog would not occur with a more knowledgeable human involved. I have no idea what happened in this particular case, I suspect the investigation is ongoing, if it is not a foregone conclusion. I can tell you that the above photograph of the woman with the dog does not show a happy dog. I also don't know if it is one of the dogs involved, as they were described as being between 100 and 125 pounds, and that dog is nowhere near that.

Of course, that also involves the media, which probably gets at least half of every story wrong.

Originally Posted by KC911

Let's take humans out of the equation...my issue is how some PBs interact with other dogs or a well estsblished pack. They present a risk that I will not expose my other casual dawgy buddies too...too many dog fights under my belt for you or anyone else to change my mind. It's what they have been bred to do....and they do.

....and it's vicious when they do, btdt too many times

It is great if Humans can learn to interact with dogs and that many poor interactions could be avoided. However, from a statistical basis, some dogs seem to be bred to do ''the right thing'' regarding human interactions, and some have a proclivity toward violent interactions that can lead to death. This isn't a gun that relies on the owner to do the shooting, this is a living carnivore.

Saying that it is a joggers fault that someone's dog made them a cripple for life seems to support the argument that there are no bad dogs. However, statistically, there are breeds that are lethal, and breeds that simply are not, and don't ''want'' to be. I don't think you can say that any particular dog is immune to having a reaction that is apparently natural to a given breed just because it has been owned or trained by a knowledgeable handler.

Again, statistics. Everyone thinks they apply to someone else and that they are the exception. I personally think that many people get off on having a lethal dog, and that some people just think that certain dogs are cool, like Spuds McKenzie. Clearly from this conversation, there are a lot of people who believe that they are immune to statistics, special, or that ''it can't happen here''. Because well, you know, words...

I expect most owners who have been mauled or had dogs that mauled others thought the same thing. Stuff happens. Do you think we can always reliably predict trigger actions or instances in every case ? I'm thinking not. Again, statistics. Go ahead and play the odds. Just realize that they exist.

[DanielDudley]

FWIW, I am always aware of other people's dogs in my space. I am mentally prepared to fight and kill a dog, if I have to. I doubt I could fight off three.

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by Matt Smith

Crowbob, it's a strange arguement to me for sure that you're taking, because you imply that nothing has a right unless Humans allow it to have one?? You're speaking from a legal perspective only? (nothing to do with the pitbulls at this stage of course).

What is so difficult about this?

Rights, the concept, is a human construct. Do trees have rights, do stones have rights, does water have rights?

Animals do not have rights. It's very simple. Do animals deserve humane treatment? In my opinion they do. But I'm strange that way. Some people don't believe that.

If animals had rights all carnivors would be criminals. Some people believe they are. I don't. These same people who believe carnivores are criminals have no problem with eating blueberries. Is that because they've decided blueberries have no rights? If so, they're hypocrites.

So I'm in my shower and there's this big bug. I did not read that bug its Miranda rights. It never occurred to me that I was violating that bug's rights, civil or otherwise, before I squished it. So far, I have not heard from the ABLU, the bug cops or anybody. Would I squish a dog under similar circumstances? Damn right! Since I don't have a dog, if one appeared in my shower uninvited I'm not going to call my lawyer, or his lawyer.

A big tree branch falls on my garage. My next step is to sue the tree?

[javadog]

You have to be careful with statistics. They're good at showing what happens, but very seldom good at showing why. I tend to look at what the researchers have to say, as they study the problem more deeply than those that simply compile numbers.

In every one of these threads, there are typically links to things that refute the information that is always discussed in these threads. You always hear someone say that these dogs will "snap" unpredictably, won't quit when fighting, and have the deadliest bite in the dog world, etc. Experts would tell you otherwise but, if I've learned one thing here, it's that people generally are not open to changing their minds and usually some of the loudest voices are from those that have little or no experience with the breed.

So be it.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

A big tree branch falls on my garage. My next step is to sue the tree?

Of course not. If you live with numerous big trees overhanging your house, as I do, you recognize that the possibility exists that a tree limb might fall on your house, if it is not healthy. You keep an eye on the trees' condition, you keep the dead wood trimmed out of them, and any potentially hazardous branches are removed before they can cause any harm.

You can apply that same amount of thought and foresight to owning a dog.

[Jims5543]

Meanwhile, one of the Stephens’ best friends said she does not believe the animals would have done anything to hurt her, considering that she had raised them since they were puppies.

“I wasn’t able to see the body, so I can’t tell you what happened. I can’t tell you if it was a blunt force or if it was a mauling, but I know those dogs didn’t do it,” Barbara Norris said.

Friends say Stephens had recently been receiving death threats prior to the incident, which is another reason why they question whether the dogs were to blame.

The police and medical examiners are all wrong. She died from blunt force trauma by a murderer and not the nice gentle dogs.

Isn't this typical of every pit bull attack, it was such a gentle dog, it would never do something like this.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by javadog

You have to be careful with statistics. They're good at showing what happens, but very seldom good at showing why. I tend to look at what the researchers have to say, as they study the problem more deeply than those that simply compile numbers.

In every one of these threads, there are typically links to things that refute the information that is always discussed in these threads. You always hear someone say that these dogs will "snap" unpredictably, won't quit when fighting, and have the deadliest bite in the dog world, etc. Experts would tell you otherwise but, if I've learned one thing here, it's that people generally are not open to changing their minds and usually some of the loudest voices are from those that have little or no experience with the breed.

So be it.

I've been intimately involved with a pure PB female and 16 offspring since they were weeks old. I've been handling dogs for 50 years with a reputation for having "the gift" for critters....and you have never typed a single thing that both you and I have not known for decades. Neither you, nor any other expert will change my mind at this point. How many PB fights have you experienced? Your condescending attitude towards CB (Baz's too) when you suggest some folks shouldn't even have a dog if they don't agree is ludicrious . Yes CB, it's one of the hardest damn decisions a dog lover ever has too make....I feel for ya brother. My buddy had to do the same....a few times.

OK....I'm out....

[javadog]

Have been around probably six or eight dogfights in my life, maybe half of those involved a pitbull. None of the fights was especially noteworthy, one way or the other, And I think I've learned enough at this point in my life that future fights are probably not very likely to happen.

The one point I made about Crowbob was that the way he viewed dogs probably would be detrimental to him establishing the same sort of healthy relationship with the dog as someone that viewed dogs in a different light. Dog owners need to meet the dog more than halfway in the relationship, as humans can be taught to think like dogs, but dogs cannot be taught to think like humans.

I don't recall disagreeing with Baz on anything, I think he's one of the people in these threads that has an open mind and is supportive of rational dog ownership.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by javadog

Have been around probably six or eight dogfights in my life, maybe half of those involved a pitbull. None of the fights was especially noteworthy, one way or the other, And I think I've learned enough at this point in my life that future fights are probably not very likely to happen.

The one point I made about Crowbob was that the way he viewed dogs probably would be detrimental to him establishing the same sort of healthy relationship with the dog as someone that viewed dogs in a different light. Dog owners need to meet the dog more than halfway in the relationship, as humans can be taught to think like dogs, but dogs cannot be taught to think like humans.

I don't recall disagreeing with Baz on anything, I think he's one of the people in these threads that has an open mind and is supportive of rational dog ownership.

Just to clarify JR...and we're "good" man...I'm just a passionate as you, Baz, and CB are

All of us (and many others on this thread) are true dawg people, with no lack of sense....we've just had different experiences with PBs...first hand...many times. I used to think like you, Baz, and Toby do.

The "bad wiring" in SOME PBs has been genetically engineered for them to fight...it is what it is at this point... a crap shoot .

Do you think it's noteworthy when a neighbor called 911 on a fight my buddy's wife was involved with...no, she's not a dog whisperer, but they've always had 'em. Paramedics were called for her. She was lucky...

MY dogfight experiences have been just as epic....my last one in particular. Every damn one was that original PB against her offspring or between them....breeding does that...it is what it is.

I "thought" I could control them....always have, no issues....then I couldn't one time .

We're all passionate and love dogs....I'm out...well, until the next thread

[Crowbob]

Originally Posted by javadog

Of course not. If you live with numerous big trees overhanging your house, as I do, you recognize that the possibility exists that a tree limb might fall on your house, if it is not healthy. You keep an eye on the trees' condition, you keep the dead wood trimmed out of them, and any potentially hazardous branches are removed before they can cause any harm.

You can apply that same amount of thought and foresight to owning a dog.

Exactly.

The tree nor the dog has rights.

As far as your opinion regarding my view of dogs and any detriment it may have on the establishment of whatever you think a proprer relationship I may have with one is arrogant, insulting and predicated on ignorance. It's not the first time you've expressed it, either.

My guess, based totally on this these exchanges, is that you seem to enjoy some kind of moral and intellectual superiority which in turn gives you authority over my ownership of a dog.

Well sir, let me inform you that you do not. In light of that, my expectation of an apology has diminshed to nothing.

[javadog]

I still don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. I'm not suggesting that I am morally or ethically superior to you. I am suggesting that if you think that, with respect to a dog, then you're not likely to have a relationship with a dog that is as successful as it could be. It's nothing more than that, and it's not personally directed at you. It's just an observation, based on what I've learned about dogs and what I've learned about people that don't understand as much about how a dog thinks.

I never set out to own a pitbull. One got dumped in my lap, so to speak, and I have done my best to give it a good life. It was the catalyst for me to take my understanding of dogs to a deeper level, and that has made me a better person and a better dog owner.

[sammyg2]

More info regarding the incident that sparked this thread:

VIRGINIA 3 hours ago
Deputies watched dogs 'eating rib cage' of Virginia woman, 22, during mauling, sheriff says
By Katherine Lam


Deputies found a Virginia woman in the woods and saw her two pit bull dogs “eating [her] rib cage,” the sheriff said on Monday about the “grisly” mauling of the 22-year-old who was found dead after taking her pets for a walk.

Bethany Stephens, 22, was found about 8:20 p.m. Thursday in a wooded area in Goodland, WTVR reported. Her father discovered her body guarded by “two very large, brindle-colored pit bull dogs,” who were Stephens’ pets that friends said she loved.

“Let me cut right to the chase, the most important detail that we did not release because we were worried about the well-being of the family is that in the course of trying to capture the dogs early Friday morning...we turned and looked…I observed, as well as four other deputy sheriffs, the dogs eating the ribcage on the body,” Goochland County Sheriff James Agnew said in a news conference.

VIRGINIA WOMAN KILLED IN 'GRISLY MAULING' BY HER DOGS, COPS SAY

Agnew held a news conference and released details on Stephens’ death after a long discussion with her family to release the information, WTVR reported.

“The injuries were very severe,” he added. “The most prevalent damage…the damage was so extensive [on the body] that there was nothing left to compare the bite marks to.”

Agnew said he and the deputies decided to capture the dogs, who were later euthanized, after the family gave permission. Authorities did not suspect foul play in the death and said no strangulation marks were found on the woman’s body.

“We had a number of witnesses came forward and we were able to put a time frame together and people’s movements together and they don’t fit with that particular narrative,” the sheriff said. “Having said that, we are still following up on those; we are still doing forensic tests.”

He said small bite marks were found on the body and the wounds didn’t puncture Stephens’ skull, ruling out that a larger animal, such as a bear, was to blame for the attack.

It’s still unclear what led to the deadly mauling, but a man who used to work with the Stephens said the pet owner loved the canines and was very experienced working with animals, according to WTVR. Other people also said the dogs were social, passive and had a “significant bond” with Stephens.

But in the time leading up to the attack, the dogs were a “little bit neglected,” Sgt. Mike Blackwood said.

MASSACHUSETTS BOY, 7, MAULED BY PIT BULLS, COPS SAY

Blackwood said Stephens had left the dogs with her father. The indoor dogs were then held up outside “in the cold” in a small kennel. Stephens would return home about five times a week to see the canines.

“[Stephens’ father] wasn’t taking care of them — it wasn’t his responsibility,” Blackwood said.

Agnew confirmed the medical examiner said Stephens was on her “menstrual period,” but added: “But I don’t think there’s any way we can definitively say what caused the attack.”

Deputies watched dogs 'eating rib cage' of Virginia woman, 22, during mauling, sheriff says | Fox News

[Baz]

Well....the problem with how to handle things going forward clearly lies with the human - not the dog.

In fact, an argument could be made, it's the human's fault in the first place.

Why am I "picking on" the human and not the dog?

It's the same argument as why a gun is not to blame for a homicide. Someone has to pull that trigger.

In the case of a dog - someone has to be stupid enough to not understand the big picture and be responsible in their action(s).

Case in point.....what breed ranks #1 in shelters? You got it:

These Are The 10 Most Common Dog Breeds Found In Shelters

1. American Pit Bull Terrier

Total Number Available for Adoption: 5,435

Not surprisingly at all, American Pit Bull Terriers were the number one breed represented in U.S. shelters for 2015 by a landslide. These dogs face overwhelming discrimination and misrepresentation in the media. In recent years, more and more advocacy groups have joined the crusade to clear the Pit Bull name, and push for dogs to be judged by their individual behavior, not just sensationalistic journalism. Hopefully, this unfair number of homeless Pits will diminish as breed specific laws are abolished, and the Pit Bull persona is given a fresh perspective.
We do not know the exact reasons behind these dogs being so highly represented in U.S. shelters. But what all of these breeds have in common is that they are among the most popular in the country. Perhaps they are over-bred, given up for financial reasons, or simply more than the owners could handle.

Before bringing any new pet into your home, please be sure to research the breed characteristics and cost of care you can expect. We can reduce the number of great dogs in shelters through education, and, of course, adoption.

OK, I'm not so sure the article really hits the nail on the head here (as written above).

But check out this comment someone left on the article:
====
"Pit bulls" are the most commonly found breed in shelters due to socio/economic reasons.
1.Why they are bred.
Backyard breeders in low income neighborhoods breed the dogs for money. The dogs typically live outdoors without proper food, water, shelter, vet care or human interaction. The expenses are minimal and a litter of 6+ puppies, born 2-3 times a year can sell for as much as the buyer will pay, anywhere from $50-$1000+ each. The puppies are separated from the mother and litter mates too early, denying them of the mother's milk, which passes on critical antibodies to strengthen their immune system. Separation from their litter mates denies them of proper dog socialization and many grow up to be dog aggressive. Because the mother lives outdoors and is not given adequate vet care, she passes on parasites and other virusus that can be deadly.

2. Why they are purchased
People buy these pups 1) for further breeding/money - and the cycle continues 2) for security. Dogs act as an alarm system to warn of strangers approaching (robbers, drug dealers, police, parole officers etc.) 3) their inherent "macho" status. 4} they are cute

3. Why they end up in shelters
The pups are adorable but they quickly grow into 60+lb adult dogs. If not properly cared for, including training, they can be too difficult to handle. Many owners rent and if they have to move, they cannot take the dog with them.The young men who often purchase these dogs may be incarcerated and now the dog is homeless. But the dogs are expendible. All an owner has to do is "let it go". Animal control will pick it up and it will be taken to a municipal shelter. And that is exactly what happens.

This is why the pit bull is the most common breed found in shelters.
=========================

So what we have here are irresponsible humans. That is squarely where the fault lies and that is where as a society we need to focus our attention, IMHO.

Complaining about how vicious the breed is doesn't do anything except fuel the debate and waste a lot of time.....

[AFC-911]

The problem lies with the dog because humans bred them the way it was.

I'm sorry, but I actively avoid PBs when I'm out with my dogs. They're the only breed I know that has attacked other dogs / people walking down the street unprovoked.

[ckcarr]

Regardless of the pit bull defenders, not all dog breeds have the same temperament. Nor do all dogs have the same bite crushing and tearing ability with their jaw strength.

Here's an interesting link:
https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php