Painters rant

[KevinP73]

In addition to my earlier post.
I appreciate that Porsche' are a hobby to most everyone here. But to some of us it is a business. Along with the cost of materials and the amount of time invested in a project, I have to factor in my rent. And then there are the various permits and taxes I have just for being a business. $300.00 to LA County Building and Safety just for occupying a commercial address. $1,400 business tax (and I'm a little guy I'd like to hear what big shops get taxed) My compressor permit. I generally don't have employee's but the expense for those who do goes far beyond just the wages paid to the worker, unemployment, workers comp. health benefits etc.
I could go on for days.
Plus I have an anticipated ROI of time and money invested in my career. I'm good at what I do and I think THAT has a value greater than the average DIYer. Spraying the material on a car is generally pretty easy. But what happens when something goes wrong? I assure you the solution is not in the instructions. Experience has it's value.

[jcommin]

The cost of a paint job depends on many things. Body prep is the most important. You don't indicate if body work is necessary. Are all of the glass, bumpers, mirrors, door handles, etc removed? Are you painting the door jams (add $1200 to the total cost).

I recently had my 944 painted. I kept the original color and my door jams were in very good condition ( did not need painting). I pulled all of the glass off, removed door panels, mirrors, handles and weather stripping. Body work was minimal, door dent dings and the like.

The prep work is important. Priming, blocking, priming again and blocking prior to paint makes/breaks the paint job. I don't have any waves on the body panels. I also went everyday to the body shop and talked to the guys who did the body and paint work.

I use a cost of $100/ hour plus materials as a rule of thumb. I also spent money on new weather stripping door, and mirror gaskets, new decals, hood badge, etc. This stuff adds up.

Get a break down on costs. Most of these shops use the same format for body/paint work.

[mattmcginn]

Originally Posted by KevinP73

Plus I have an anticipated ROI of time and money invested in my career. I'm good at what I do and I think THAT has a value greater than the average DIYer. Spraying the material on a car is generally pretty easy. But what happens when something goes wrong? I assure you the solution is not in the instructions. Experience has it's value.

truer words never spoken Kevin-very succinct.

Not that I am interested in changing the tenor of the post and not to challenge anyone posting above of course, but we who are good at this stuff like to be compensated in a fair manner for what we do. I write this sitting here killing time as my crew has left hours ago, waiting for coats of paint to cure enough to apply another (at 8:00 pm) with a three week old daughter and another two year old daughter and a belabored (and VERY understanding) wife at home who is just happy that this restoration is going well, i.e. no major disasters!

With respect to paint prices, it is mind boggling how much this stuff costs, I can charge a customer my cost and they think I am making up prices. And the sundry materials will crush you, I just got a random 20 percent increase on supplies and basic paint and body materials from one of my suppliers for a new year's present. Great for those jobs in the queue that I estimated last year!

[Jeff Alton]

I agree with everything posted by the painters. My only point was if labour is 100/hr and the labour bill is 8,000, then I would expect 80 hours be spent on the job. Same goes for anything that has a per hour rate, if that is how you bill.

Do most shops bill by the hour or by the job? I could understand either way of doing it.

I also would recommend you ask to see some of the work a shop does before spending your hard earned cash. I have seen lots of big dollar jobs that I would have been pretty upset with if I was footing the bill.

I guess it comes down to checking out the work the shop does, getting an estimate and deciding if the results would justify the cost.

On a side note.... Do the good shops (axiom, Kevin adn matt who have posted here) mind if someone brings the car without trim or glass and plans on doing their own reassembly or would you prefer to do it?

Cheers

[Axiom]

Now, Jeff brings out a good point......and here is my take on it...fasten your seat belt boys, this could take long.

There is a saying among bodyshops and it goes, THERE IS NO MONEY IN RESTORATIONS, and everybody wants the gravy that insurance work brings, some shops do restorations with the idea of showing their skills. And every shop has high standards, I do often question the definition of HIGH, that they are using.

Now, let's be fair, I've had my share of costumers that have been a challenge to deal with, many times when a person works on his car, comes to your shop and tells you how to do your job, what the paint code is, and even what the color name is, to tell you the truth, that is annoying, on the other hand, there have been way too many scams and which clients have been taken advantage of...it makes all of us look bad, but, if you look inside these forums, there are talks of german paint, porsche specific colors, and many things of the like, off course, someone is gonna benefit of the not well informed.

An honest body shop will give you the job you paid for it and stand behind it, that we have to work late and on weekends, I don't think that's the clients' fault.

I don't mind if a client brings the car all apart, I just can warranty that all is goint to fit, since I did not saw it together, I can only take my best guess.

Remember, we chose what to do for a living.

[mattmcginn]

Hey Jeff-I am speaking of course from my experience. We're kind of a smallish boutique shop who does a lot of work for the vintage BMW crowd here in the snowy NE with of lots of rusty 70's junkers crossing our path.

To point, I usually I dont mind if my customers disassemble/reassemble their cars on their own because it can bring great pride to build their own cars and this only reflects on what we did to build the foundation.

If based upon a figure of 80 or so hours at a shop labor rate of $100 per hour (which I wish I actually billed per real man hour worked as I could pay all my guys what I would like) and 80 hours spent on a "paint job" then that does not allocate for paint and materials much.

Above and beyond the usual help/employment issues any business has to deal with are the myriad problems that any resto shop has to deal with (not singing the blues of course) are previous junky paint jobs with poor adhesion, substrate compatibility problems, etc.

These problems can be very difficult to estimate from a shop that has pride in work, doing work for a customer who demands perfection (and who dreads said pissed off customer 2/3/4/ [whatever] years down the road without really molesting a customer's car. so in my book"estimates" can be pretty much useless until othe car is really looked at a bit to see what lurking problems may occur.

I would love to be able to do a "windows out, lids-off" type paint job in that amount of time for that amount of money! Life would be a bit easier I guess! Working toward a desired result rather than a budget is very tough stuff!

[KevinP73]

Of course all jobs are different as are all customers. I don't mind at all if someone wants to disassemble their car before bringing to me. To be quite honest I'd rather see a customer save money by doing some of the work himself rather than try to depreciate the value of my services.
I'll go as far as to offer to touch up any nicks or scratches he/she causes while re-assembling the car. I also, on all my jobs, offer a life time guarantee on all my work. I'll even offer a reduced price at the end of the first year to re-shoot the front end on most cars used on the track.
The only thing I won't do is complete work started by anyone other than myself.

[Jeff Alton]

Good feedback guys. I only picked 80 hours as an example. I understand that every job is different and the hours could vary considerably once you get into it and really see what you have.

This is one industry I really do not know much about the business side of so I am just more curious than anything.

Are their jobs you guys would do for "X" amount of dollars even if you went a wee bit upside down on it if the car was going to build more business? Like a rare vehicle or well known one that may be a magazine feature or something? A job where you could say "I did not make the margin I wanted on this, but I am getting good return on the free advertising"? Or do those jobs not really exist where it would be worth it.

By the way Kevin, you owe us some pics of the cool blue Alfa...

I have decided I don't have the time and more importantly the skills yet to paint my car and am going to send it out. I am glad to hear you guys would not mind seeing it stripped when it showed up. I will be pulling the lights, bumpers, hood, tail, trim and all the glass prior to dropping it off.

Thanks for the insight.

Cheers

[KevinP73]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

Are their jobs you guys would do for "X" amount of dollars even if you went a wee bit upside down on it if the car was going to build more business? Like a rare vehicle or well known one that may be a magazine feature or something? A job where you could say "I did not make the margin I wanted on this, but I am getting good return on the free advertising"? Or do those jobs not really exist where it would be worth it.

Never Again!! I've done it but have never gotten the return that was expected. There are only two kinds of credit you can have, credit in the bank and credit in a magazine. Guess which one pays the rent!!

[Jeff Alton]

Kinda what I figured!

Cheers

[Axiom]

Jeff: from my enthusiast point of view, some times we want to personalized our rides, make it unique, but some times the job is not cost effective, for the shop or client.
http://axiom-motorsports.com/wst_page10.php?ID2=53LaVA&RowIdx=
This page will show you some of those projects, One wanted to have a 996 retractable tail on a 911 sc lid, by the time we were done, it was a good 40 hours, he also wanted to have AC under that lid. Do I charge that many hours for a just a conversion, or do I take under consideration the costumer that he is.

I have a few minutes to spare, it is relaxing and funny to read some of these threads, there are no secrets left, so there is only a couple of things to say.

COSTUMER SERVICE MUST BE # 1
AND QUALITY NEVER GOES OUT OF STYLE (sorry Levi's)

[Jeff Alton]

I have looked over your site a few times and wondered what something like that might cost!!

It is interesting comparing different car related industries. Like I said I don't know much about this one but have 3 piece wheels manufactured and other interesting parts. I also do engine rebuilds but I am lucky enough to only pick the motor jobs I want because it is a hobby. The manufacturing part though has been a real eye opener. Despite some pretty good volume and some great stuff comming to market this spring I still hope to break even or even make a few dollars for my time/cash investment in that end of things....

Cheers

[johncmng]

Ok, I'm convinced that Porsche has "SPECIAL" paint. I had my wife talk to the shops I had previously visited. She has ask the shop to paint an Acura Intergra with the same paint that they told me that they were going to use on the Porsche. Also, keep in mine that the car is much bigger that the P-Car and it has 4 doors. It was about $2K less then it was quoted for the P-Car. This is for the same paint and prep job. Does a P-Car tell everybody that I'm Mr. Money Bags? Is living in the Bay Area really that expensive? Axiom, I might be visiting you soon.

[HelmetHead]

johncmng - Perhaps the additional cost is due to the P-car having more curves?? I do tend to agree with you however that people see Porsche and they think..ok..this guy has more money than the next schmuck...lets get some of it...

slightly off topic...
Jeff - I'm soon to be in the market for some 3pc wheels for my widebody conversion...seem to recall reading that you're the one to talk to about this subject....could you fill me in on whats involved and pricing...

Helmethead

[Jeff Alton]

Helmethead,

Shoot me a PM or email and I will be happy to discuss the options for you!

Cheers

[jcommin]

There are two things no one can take away from you. One is your knowledge/experience, the other is your reputation/pride.

I believe referrals are a large part of your business which doesn't include repeat business. I don't buy that articles, shows, free advertising doesn't pay. A good looking car that you refurbish is free advertising. It is a very competitive world out there and any edge you can get, you need to take it. If you wait for someone to flip thru the yellow pages to find you, you will be out of business.

I chose the shop to have my car painted. I looked at their work, I looked at the facility and I talked to the owners. I had a great experience getting my car painted. The owners told me it was one of their easier jobs. I knew what I wanted, I gave them schematics, parts diagrams and the like. I talked to the men who prepped, painted and assembled my car. Using my $100/hr rule of thumb, I had a vague idea what this would cost. Did I get sticker shock, no. I wasn't lookin for something for nothing. I got a 24 year old ride that I take great pride in. The finished product is a reflection of me too.

I know the retail public is a fickel bunch. For every idiot that has walked thru your shops, I'm sure the has been a good guy too. Maybe ther are more morons than good guys, but it is the same everywhere. You guys aren't special.

I was always taught that whatever I do, do it well. Looking at some of the work here, I'm not alone with that attitiude. For someone who is a car guy, they won't go to anyone, they will come to you.

[Axiom]

Originally Posted by jcommin

There are two things no one can take away from you. One is your knowledge/experience, the other is your reputation/pride.

I believe referrals are a large part of your business which doesn't include repeat business. I don't buy that articles, shows, free advertising doesn't pay. A good looking car that you refurbish is free advertising. It is a very competitive world out there and any edge you can get, you need to take it. If you wait for someone to flip thru the yellow pages to find you, you will be out of business.

I know the retail public is a fickel bunch. For every idiot that has walked thru your shops, I'm sure the has been a good guy too. Maybe ther are more morons than good guys, but it is the same everywhere. You guys aren't special.

I was always taught that whatever I do, do it well. Looking at some of the work here, I'm not alone with that attitiude. For someone who is a car guy, they won't go to anyone, they will come to you.

Well spoken...it should be easy to take care of the customer that put money in our bank, that could have been inspired by a magazine, so that now we can pay our rent.

We hate the difficult customer, but we forget that at any given place, we become one.

[johncmng]

OK, what about Porsche Mechanics? They have to feed their kids, college fund, shop expense, payroll, rent, some pay health insurance to their emplyee,PG&E. They charge about $98 per hour. Are they less skilled thasn a painter? No, I don't think so. Some of the really great mechanics (T&D Performance, S Car Go,GD Racing, Ken's Sportech, Tom Amon and even the P-Car dealers) around the Bay Area charge less than $300. What is it about painter that charge so much and hour for their labor? I don't mind paying the hundred dollar or so, but $300 is a little too much.

[KevinP73]

I've noticed with most mechanics if you hand them a part to be installed and the little bolt holes don't line up just right they start to piss and moan and give you the part back crying that it doesn't fit. But as a bodyman I'm handed a car that has been wrapped around a light pole, rolled over twice and skidded on it's roof and I'm expected to return a perfect showroom ready Porsche. So in my opinion YES bodymen and painters ARE worth more than any mechanic.
YMMV

[johncmng]

But I'm just re-painting my car. The body is in perfect shape and has never been wrecked. So shouldn't the cost be less? I'll have to defend the mechanics here, even if they piss and moan, they get the job done on time and it looks and performs great too. I had a mechanic trying to put on some cir clip to a set of JE piston and wound up ending to a trip to the hospital for 9 stiches in his hand. And he didn't charge the customer for the hospital bill. And he finished on time. If you said Van Gough was shooting the paint, maaaaaaybe I'll pay the higher rate.