First Startup Subaru Flat 6!

[WMichelsen]

I understand the purist perspective. But, I don't agree with some of the other points.

It says the kit comes with the engine already. So, $18K is total, DIY install, plus probably a couple K for incidentals. Let's say $20K. ... for 300 HP.
You have modern reliability, easy/inexpensive maintenance/repair, etc.
And, you still have the original removed engine to reinstall later, rebuild, or sell as a core.

I haven't done it (yet), but I understand a basic return-to-stock DIY 911 engine rebuild is about $20K. Stepping up to get 300 HP adds $10K to that. (Please correct me here ... it's in my future)

So, it sounds like a totally viable and reversible way to get a 50% performance boost for relatively cheap.

Of question.. how much has it been tested in real-world extremes? Does it have enough radiator cooling stuck in traffic @ 110 degF?

[pmax]

Nice work.
More choices is always a good thing.

Besides the stuff which has been mentioned e.g. cooling etc, what about AC/heat ? Would be a shame not to get those along with the rest of the modern improvements.

Oh .... and CARBS approval ?

[almostordinary]

I dig it!!

[PeteKz]

I don’t care what the rest of y’all think, I like it. It’s a good variation on the classic.

[ryans65]

Very cool option for these cars, as a side note the 3.0 timing cover and water pump is one of the most complex messes I've ever seen. Still a solid engine but good lord it's not fun to tear down and reseal.

[Jeff Higgins]

One of the coolest long hoods I have ever seen belonged to a fellow R Gruppe member many years ago. I believe it was a '68 (but I could be off by a year or two) 912. Its first motor was a big bore (again, memory fails, but I think 2.4 liter?) Jake Raby type 4. What a beast. When that proved to be, ahem, "insufficient", a Subaru WRX motor found its way in. I'm not sure what kind of power those things make, something like 300 hp? Whatever it was, it was a rocket ship at something under 2,000 pounds. I had the pleasure of riding along in it on many sessions at Buttonwillow Raceway. All home made, too, he designed and fabricated everything himself. The purest essence of hot rodding.

But... and this, to me, is a big "but"... That was back when longhood 912's were $5,000 cars, on their best days. Kind of a "blank slate" when found in less than complete or running condition. My own son, at the ripe old age of 15, bought his '68 (with a blown motor and some rust) from a very generous local club member. $2,500. We built it into a 911 (with the 2.4 out of my '72), repaired the rust, etc. as his high school senior year project. That was 20 years ago, and he still drives it.

But (another "but"), those days are long gone. I've seen 912's approaching six figures on BAT. Insanity in my opinion, but that's a discussion for another day. The point is, we used to spend three times what they were worth to fix 'em up and get 'em going in those days. Because we loved 'em. Today, we spend a little more fixing them up, but the tables have turned, "bigly" - now when we are done they are worth three times what we spent (assuming we do the work ourselves).

So, yeah, super, super cool conversion, the true spirit of hot rodding. But, well, the value proposition has changed so much over the years, that the reasons for doing this are down to just the "cool factor". Which is good enough. Let's just not kid ourselves that this makes economic sense. It doesn't. But, well, that's the beauty of this hobby - it doesn't have to. It just has to be cool. And, well, this one is a solid "win" in that regard.

[AutoXer23]

Originally Posted by rennch

Oh, and this one lets you add fun things like turbos to get over 400HP without having to do a full engine build. (on e85, no less...)

That sure is a pretty booty.

[Matt Monson]

Tasty. Suby Hai!

[rennch]

Originally Posted by kevbo

I looked at the LS option once as a hot swap so I could slowly rebuild my 3.2 at some point but the install was too..... permanent. Based on your XP, is this more plug and play or is the install more one way like Renegade?

This arrives in a crate, mostly assembled. All wiring done, all hoses measured and terminated. Bolt on whatever muffler you like and hit the road. I'm building the kit so it can be installed in a weekend.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by WMichelsen

I understand the purist perspective. But, I don't agree with some of the other points.

It says the kit comes with the engine already. So, $18K is total, DIY install, plus probably a couple K for incidentals. Let's say $20K. ... for 300 HP.
You have modern reliability, easy/inexpensive maintenance/repair, etc.
And, you still have the original removed engine to reinstall later, rebuild, or sell as a core.

I haven't done it (yet), but I understand a basic return-to-stock DIY 911 engine rebuild is about $20K. Stepping up to get 300 HP adds $10K to that. (Please correct me here ... it's in my future)

So, it sounds like a totally viable and reversible way to get a 50% performance boost for relatively cheap.

Of question.. how much has it been tested in real-world extremes? Does it have enough radiator cooling stuck in traffic @ 110 degF?

First and foremost, I'm pleasantly surprised by the discourse on this. I'm not sure if it would be the same if it were 10 years ago. I think many of us are weary of the "Porsche Tax" on everything, especially as prices go up and up. Why should an oil change cost hundreds of dollars??

An engine rebuild in SoCal for $20k would be an absolute bargain. But the other half of the equation is that there are so few people left in the country that are doing good engine rebuilds, and they are booked out for months (and sometimes years), so to even get a SLOT in the queue is daunting.

That is one of the use cases I've built this kit for. You can bolt it in while you wait for your engine to be done, and then remove it when your engine gets back to you. (Provided you aren't already addicted to the extra 100+ HP)

Now, could I have chosen an STI engine, or a K-Swap, or even (gross) a V8 conversion? Sure...but this particular engine is so remarkably similar to the 3.0 SC engine that I didn't want it to be TOO much of a stretch for us pearl-clutching Porsche purists.

The engine itself isn't even the most expensive part of the kit. But the kit itself is being engineered by a guy that truly loves the platform and has the purist in mind. I want it to be shockingly easy to install and maintain, and a joy to drive.

I'm spending thousands and thousands of dollars to custom make radiatiors that are essentially the same form factor as the original Porsche oil coolers (right down to the brackets) and install exactly the same.

I've even sold my own 1995 993 engine to help finance the development of the kit. So I'm committed to making it seamless and great for those of us who want to get out and drive.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Mechanically, the engineer in me loves it. Philosophically, the life long Porsche enthusiast in me recoils a bit. Monetarily, I see this as a false economy.

By the time we have purchased the kit and a suitable engine, we are really not all that far behind the cost of rebuilding the Porsche motor.

It also sounds to me like any "savings" are predicated on not having the skills to rebuild a motor, but somehow having the skills to perform this swap. I'm thinking that if a guy has the skills to perform this swap, they should have no trouble rebuilding their Porsche engine.

I'm going to have to push back on this a bit. Porsche engines are *notoriously* difficult to rebuild, and require MANY special tools , and the experience to use them. I think a DIY rebuild of a Porsche engine is a much bigger deal than most hobbyists will want to tackle. You have to know what you're looking at in terms of machining all of the parts, how to measure to the thousanth, and the "do's and don't's" when assembling. I consider myself quite experienced in the garage, and it's something I'd like to tackle someday, but is still quite daunting to me.

In contrast, when you receive this kit, it comes in a crate and is completely assembled and ready to go. You bolt the engine to the trans run the power and ground wires to the ECU (and a few others) run the pre-cut, pre-assembled hoses, mount the radiators to the brackets, fill it with oil and coolant, and drive away. (That's a bit simplified, but that's the jist)

It can be done in a weekend with a toolkit you buy at Harbor Freight and fluids you get at Autozone, with little to no experience. (I include a tutorial install video) . I would rate it a 3-4 out of 10 in terms of how difficult it is, whereas an engine rebuild I'd rate at least a 9 out of 10.

Plus, all that being said, you're getting a MUCH more modern, tunable, cheaper to maintain, more powerful engine that no one would even know is under there unless you tell them.

It's invisible, by design.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

. But, well, the value proposition has changed so much over the years, that the reasons for doing this are down to just the "cool factor". Which is good enough. Let's just not kid ourselves that this makes economic sense. It doesn't. But, well, that's the beauty of this hobby - it doesn't have to. It just has to be cool. And, well, this one is a solid "win" in that regard.

In a way, this makes my point. Take your purist, 90 hp, matching numbers engine out and stick it on a shelf so you don't blow it up. Install my kit in a weekend, have a 300'ish hp sub 2000lb car to rip around, and bolt your original engine back in if you'd like to sell it. My kit is completely non destructive.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by pmax

NOh .... and CARBS approval ?

Definitely not my department. I would doubt it.

But that's why people register cars in Montana. :P

[REVerend]

This is all very interesting…. Forgive my relative ignorance on this. How is compatibility across various transmissions? Is the 915 in my 1983 SC sufficient for the additional power? Otherwise bolts right up?

Being a more modern engine I’m assuming it needs a cat and the various pre and post sensors?

[rennch]

Originally Posted by REVerend

This is all very interesting…. Forgive my relative ignorance on this. How is compatibility across various transmissions? Is the 915 in my 1983 SC sufficient for the additional power? Otherwise bolts right up?

Being a more modern engine I’m assuming it needs a cat and the various pre and post sensors?

Yes, the 915 is fine, but I wouldn't push it too much further than 300HP and rail on it.

The ECU handles all of the bits, and my headers have no cats. Like most other engine swaps, each state is going to have it's rules and that is out of my purview.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by WMichelsen

Does it have enough radiator cooling stuck in traffic @ 110 degF?

I'm going to wager that that particular instance would give most air cooled Porsches a lot of trouble.

The reality is, we won't know until all of the kits are out in the world and subject to those extremes. The rads each have a push fan on them that's controlled by the ECU. And there's room to add more radiators for those in extreme climates. But the numbers suggest that we have proper cooling for the engine.

Since each kit is essentially "bespoke" in terms of necessity, that can be addressed on a "per user" basis. If someone buys a kit in South Texas or Arizona, I might be compelled to add a 3rd radiator to the setup.

[rennch]

Found a newer shot of The Blasphemy Build.

[motorstereo]

As a long time lover of both air cooled (VWs, BMWs, and Porsches) and Subarus, this is the coolest mod I’ve ever seen! I would be sorely tempted to do this if I ever find a car minus the engine . Thanks for sharing !

[Ryan_Cunningham]

I’ve watched every video you’ve put out. The craftsmanship is inspiring. As for the purists, they’re just cars. Do what you want with them. I love my SC, but the stock engine leaves a lot to be desired.

Great work. Would love to go for a ride in one of these.

[shoooo32]

I'd rather have a 300hp subie flat six than a stock CIS SC engine. Also, a heater core allows for an infinitely better cold weather/defrost experience.