First Startup Subaru Flat 6!

[rennch]

Originally Posted by shoooo32

I'd rather have a 300hp subie flat six than a stock CIS SC engine. Also, a heater core allows for an infinitely better cold weather/defrost experience.

Thanks for reminding me . A really cool ancillary benefit of the engine is that it has a very capable air-conditioning compressor. Using a vintage air set up, I should be able to add AC/heat/defrost for under $2000 to the Kit. I haven't tried it yet but I have it mocked up in The first prototype vehicle.

[chucksmith]

This is a really nice option for a hot rod build. I am putting a 97 VRAM Porsche 3.6 in my wide body 1980 hot rod and I will have far more money invested in the motor and needed parts than 18K. It will be nice for sure, but if the right car came along, I would consider one of these Subi kits.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by chucksmith

This is a really nice option for a hot rod build. I am putting a 97 VRAM Porsche 3.6 in my wide body 1980 hot rod and I will have far more money invested in the motor and needed parts than 18K. It will be nice for sure, but if the right car came along, I would consider one of these Subi kits.

So, this engine has the same VarioRam, designed and implemented by Porsche for Subaru. They call it AVCS+.

[Showdown]

Had Michael’s Kitt been around when I was shopping for a car, I most certainly would’ve bought a roller and his kit. This is by far one of the coolest, most creative, and downright clever projects offered for the 911.

So, will version two an ITB option?


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[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by rennch

I'm going to have to push back on this a bit. Porsche engines are *notoriously* difficult to rebuild, and require MANY special tools , and the experience to use them. I think a DIY rebuild of a Porsche engine is a much bigger deal than most hobbyists will want to tackle. You have to know what you're looking at in terms of machining all of the parts, how to measure to the thousanth, and the "do's and don't's" when assembling. I consider myself quite experienced in the garage, and it's something I'd like to tackle someday, but is still quite daunting to me.

That's fair, and I appreciate the perspective. Maybe I'm jaded, or have lost sight of how "daunting" Porsche flat sixes are to the first time builder. To me, though, they are one of the easiest, most pleasurable engines I have ever rebuilt. Everything fits, everything makes sense.

My background consists of big block MOPAR drag motors, Harley motors, VW motors, Ducati motors, and some others. All of those have some inherent annoyances, some real "gotchas" that can ruin your day. I've just never felt that way with Porsche motors. Lots of pieces, yes, some things to measure, yes, some special tools (but really not all that many compared to some of those others I've worked on).

So, I guess it's a matter of perspective, and I do appreciate yours. You should do it someday, though. With what I've seen here, I'm here to tell you, you will have no trouble. Piece of cake compared to what you have accomplished with this.

Originally Posted by rennch

In contrast, when you receive this kit, it comes in a crate and is completely assembled and ready to go. You bolt the engine to the trans run the power and ground wires to the ECU (and a few others) run the pre-cut, pre-assembled hoses, mount the radiators to the brackets, fill it with oil and coolant, and drive away. (That's a bit simplified, but that's the jist)

It can be done in a weekend with a toolkit you buy at Harbor Freight and fluids you get at Autozone, with little to no experience. (I include a tutorial install video) . I would rate it a 3-4 out of 10 in terms of how difficult it is, whereas an engine rebuild I'd rate at least a 9 out of 10.

Plus, all that being said, you're getting a MUCH more modern, tunable, cheaper to maintain, more powerful engine that no one would even know is under there unless you tell them.

It's invisible, by design.

Sounds fantastic, but color me "skeptical". I've seen my share of problems when swapping Porsche engines into cars they were not originally found in. I've seen my share of problems installing oil cooler kits specific to our cars, wiring harnesses, etc. I can't imagine a radiator and water hose kit and a wiring harness representing parts that were never there to begin with.

The problems I have seen (and the above is a very abbreviated list) stem from the variation in these tubs, being hand built as they were. Motor, trannies, etc. are a piece of cake compared to anything involving mounting and routing stuff on the tub itself. Then there's those darn wiring harnesses...

A great example is something like an "R" or "ST" style crossover oil line "kit", feeding to fender mounted coolers. We've been mounting these since the late 1960's. I have one on my car, and I've helped many others install theirs. Each and every time at least one of the lines has to be remade because the one included in the kit didn't fit. And it's never the same line. I've almost got enough "cast offs" to build a whole new kit, and I'm sure most of them would fit on whatever car I try to put them on.

Originally Posted by rennch

In a way, this makes my point. Take your purist, 90 hp, matching numbers engine out and stick it on a shelf so you don't blow it up. Install my kit in a weekend, have a 300'ish hp sub 2000lb car to rip around, and bolt your original engine back in if you'd like to sell it. My kit is completely non destructive.

Yup, absolutely. This is what I see as the very best application for this.

What I see as a rather dubious value proposition, however, is a 911 with a tired or damaged engine in need of a rebuild and installing this kit instead. I believe that by the time either is actually finished and running, the cost would be a wash. And now you have a 911 whose value is severely diminished with the installation of a Subaru motor. There is just no getting around that.

[chucksmith]

Originally Posted by rennch

So, this engine has the same VarioRam, designed and implemented by Porsche for Subaru. They call it AVCS+.

you may be thinking of the VarioCam. The Varioram refers to the Intake on 96-97-98 993 cars. Good for getting more low end torque. The Variable cam is sweet though.

[chucksmith]

While there is no doubt that today an all Porsche hot rod or original car is the most sought after, I think that will change as the younger buyers come in. Just as it happened with mid year Corvettes ,Broncos ect.. Old school looks with modern drivetrain and reliability at a low price is a good thing.

[dw1]

My 2¢ on the "Subie vs original engine" issue:

Sure, an all-original car is potentially the most valuable - if it is in good condition. I keep my '87 3.2 (with relatively low mileage) in stock condition with only simple and easily reversible bolt-on mods, but I can certainly understand the appeal of better performance.

But what is worth more: an original non-turbo, pre-993 911 with an engine in dire need of a rebuild or a car with a replacement non-Porsche engine that not only works well but gives the car more performance that the original ever had?

I know, I know...the E-type Jags that were ruined by putting Chevy V-8s into them... But I have been consistently surprised at the prices that many restomods have been getting, and the market for them among younger enthusiasts.

I have a neighbor (a younger gentleman) who a few years back bought a 911 in driveable condition but needing quite a bit of work. (I don't remember the year, but it was either a "mid-year" or an early SC). The price of fixing it up was prohibitive, so he sold it after owning it for a relatively short time and bought a Mitsubishi Evo.

A kit like this one would have been perfect for that car and for what he wanted out of it.

[Jeff Higgins]

I can definitely see that side of it, dw1. There is certainly a place for this conversion under circumstances such as those you describe. The right set of circumstances are key - we cannot devalue that which has no value to begin with. It's a pretty steep hill from the car you describe to a "fully Porsche" resurrection, we all know that. It's become frightfully expensive, and not just inside the engine bay. Something like this kit can absolutely serve to lessen that burden financially.

I think this is another excellent application for this kit, along with the one Michael described earlier, wherein one has an underpowered, mostly original 912 or something, and wants some cheap and dependable (and entirely reversible) significant power boost, keeping the original engine on a shelf if there ever comes a time to sell. Both are, to me at least, excellent use cases for this kit. Some others under discussion, maybe not so much, but in these two cases at least (and maybe more) it's a great fit.

[fanaudical]

This would be a neat kit for a scenario where you've got a roller and not much to start with. I might have jumped on this when I got my Targa with a blown engine and trashed transaxle years ago. Are you doing anything to pair a modern trans with this setup?

[rennch]

Originally Posted by fanaudical

This would be a neat kit for a scenario where you've got a roller and not much to start with. I might have jumped on this when I got my Targa with a blown engine and trashed transaxle years ago. Are you doing anything to pair a modern trans with this setup?

In my "Blasphemy Build", I've got it mated up to a G96 6-Speed Cable Shift with a custom adapter plate.

And there are a couple of companies working on a reversed Subaru 5 AND 6 speed trans as well. We are somewhat fortunate that the VW community has been swapping for these engines for many years, so they have a bit of a head start.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My background consists of big block MOPAR drag motors, Harley motors, VW motors, Ducati motors, and some others. All of those have some inherent annoyances, some real "gotchas" that can ruin your day. I've just never felt that way with Porsche motors. Lots of pieces, yes, some things to measure, yes, some special tools (but really not all that many compared to some of those others I've worked on).

Again, I'm going to have to say you've proven your own point here Jeff. From the sounds of it, you are a VERY experienced engine builder. That is NOT the target customer here.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by chucksmith

you may be thinking of the VarioCam. The Varioram refers to the Intake on 96-97-98 993 cars. Good for getting more low end torque. The Variable cam is sweet though.

Yes, I am! Oops!

[WMichelsen]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

... Maybe I'm jaded, or have lost sight of how "daunting" Porsche flat sixes are to the first time builder.

You're talking about future me... first time builder.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

... What I see as a rather dubious value proposition, however, is a 911 with a tired or damaged engine in need of a rebuild and installing this kit instead. I believe that by the time either is actually finished and running, the cost would be a wash. And now you have a 911 whose value is severely diminished with the installation of a Subaru motor. There is just no getting around that.

The way I see it (maybe) ... I have about 250K miles on my 3.2L. It's starting to burn oil and smoke after sitting. Still passes CA Smog, but I assume that means a rebuild is coming.

With your experience, Jeff, how much is a DIY 250 HP build of a 3.2L? I'm not trolling. I am really interested in this info.

If this really is 99% reversible swap (noted -if-, minor drill holes mentioned, and 3.2L kit not yet available), then I can get a 300 HP fun-mobile for $20K. Drive it for years. Then swap back to where it began when it's time to move on. Where is the lost value ... other than associated wear from enjoying it, which should happen either way?

[rennch]

Originally Posted by WMichelsen

You're talking about future me... first time builder.



The way I see it (maybe) ... I have about 250K miles on my 3.2L. It's starting to burn oil and smoke after sitting. Still passes CA Smog, but I assume that means a rebuild is coming.

With your experience, Jeff, how much is a DIY 250 HP build of a 3.2L? I'm not trolling. I am really interested in this info.

If this really is 99% reversible swap (noted -if-, minor drill holes mentioned, and 3.2L kit not yet available), then I can get a 300 HP fun-mobile for $20K. Drive it for years. Then swap back to where it began when it's time to move on. Where is the lost value ... other than associated wear from enjoying it, which should happen either way?

So, I'm in SoCal. There are about a half-dozen shops that have a good reputation rebuilding these. Dave from TRE Motorsports, February 2024, was quoting Q4 2025 to get an engine back to someone if they brought it in right away, and the cost was about $30k.

This isn't universal, of course, but I think it's representative. And it's worth noting that we probably have more reputable shops here in SoCal then most places.

[Showdown]

A full engine rebuild in Chicagoland is running around $30k.


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[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by WMichelsen

You're talking about future me... first time builder.



The way I see it (maybe) ... I have about 250K miles on my 3.2L. It's starting to burn oil and smoke after sitting. Still passes CA Smog, but I assume that means a rebuild is coming.

With your experience, Jeff, how much is a DIY 250 HP build of a 3.2L? I'm not trolling. I am really interested in this info.

If this really is 99% reversible swap (noted -if-, minor drill holes mentioned, and 3.2L kit not yet available), then I can get a 300 HP fun-mobile for $20K. Drive it for years. Then swap back to where it began when it's time to move on. Where is the lost value ... other than associated wear from enjoying it, which should happen either way?

The cost really depends on what it needs. My last build, documented in part in this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1163328-mighty-3-0-mfi-motor-has-finally-had.html

Took me about a month. It wound up needing new pistons, new rod bearings and, of course a gasket kit. My friend John Walker rebuilt the heads for me. He found it only needed a few new valves and no new guides, so it was basically just grinding the valves and lapping them to the seats. All of the springs and keepers were good. I checked the crankshaft and it mic'd out fine, the small end rod (wrist pin end) bushings were fine, as were the rocker arm bushings and shafts.

It wound up costing me less than $3,500. That's the absolute bottom of the range, due to the motor being in generally fantastic shape. Add in turning the crank (if needed), sizing the rods and new wrist pin bushings, all new guides and valves (most common problem on 3.2's), and I bet you could easily double that. If it needs cylinders in addition to pistons, add in another couple grand for even a reconditioned set from someone like EBS. Mag case motors (which, fortunately for you, you do not have) will always need facing, line boring, and such from a place like Ollie's. That's another couple grand.

So,even a "worst case" 3.2 that needs "everything", I can't see it going over $10-12k. But that's if you do EVERYTHING yourself. Except of course the machine work. These "$30k" rebuild costs these guys are touting are basically drop the car off, hand the guy the keys, come back later, he hands you the keys, and you drive off with a rebuilt motor. No grease under your fingernails, no busted knuckles, no thrown tools, no inventive new "garage language" (believe me, we can get pretty creative on that one). And, well, no fun, and no opportunity to learn anything.

So, anyway, that's part of what I've been saying - if you have a good car, with a good but tired motor, this kit ain't for you. If you are unskilled enough to require a pro to do either for you (rebuild original motor or install this kit), I think it's a wash. If you are capable of rebuilding your own motor, you would be way ahead to do so compared to buying this kit. Like i've said repeatedly, there are some fantastic use cases where this kit makes sense. Yours is not one of those.

[eastbay]

I was unaware of the Subi EZ30R motors and did a quick ebay search, holy cow are these cheap!

I would think you could do pretty well selling full or partial kits with just the conversion parts.

Nice work.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by eastbay

I was unaware of the Subi EZ30R motors and did a quick ebay search, holy cow are these cheap!

I would think you could do pretty well selling full or partial kits with just the conversion parts.

Nice work.

Yes, the engine is definitely not the most expensive part of the conversion. However, my profit is not in the parts. In fact, most of the parts are a full "pass through". If you wanted to DIY this, you could probably do it for Somewhere around $10,000-$12,000. Maybe cheaper if you went the **** route.

However, I had very specific goals for this conversion.

1. It needed to be "invisible". That means using Porsche engine mounts and locations, Porsche exhaust, and not have the "gurgling" sound of a Subaru.

2. It needed to be 100% reversible, and not require any customization of the chassis or OEM parts.

3. It needed to install incredibly easily, so a "regular" shade tree mechanic could
install it in a weekend, using common tools. My goal was, "if you can do an oil change, brake pads, or at most something as complicated as changing your clutch, you can install this kit with a buddy and a 12 pack of beer in a single weekend."

4. It needed to be a significant technical and power upgrade from most stock Porsche engines. With the output of the kit being approximately 300 hp, the only Porsche engine that approaches that is the 3.6 from the 993. I just sold my 3.6 for approximately $30,000, which is right around the going rate.

I have three years of engineering, 3-D scanning, 3-D modeling, parts sourcing and OEM manufacturing (for instance, the radiators for this kit are bespoke and did not exist in the marketplace prior to this project) trial and error, prototyping, hundreds and hundreds of hours, (if not over 1000) of time and development, and thousands of $$ into this kit.

If somebody is ambitious enough to tackle this, my guess is that it will take them a year or two, unless they are a fabrication shop in which case maybe six months or so, but again, that is not my target customer.

I'm not selling parts, I am selling a solution.











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[Jeff Higgins]

Magnificent work, Michael. Very, very impressive. Your ability to envision and implement innovative solutions to complex problems is fantastic. This comes from a now retired engineer with 35 years at the Boeing company, with the last part of my career spent in a unit known as "AOG" - "aircraft on ground". In other words, unable to fly, therefor unable to make any money for its owners. I was the tooling engineer, responsible for all of the special and unique equipment needed to affect any given repair, all of which were different. Real "crash" damage, hard landings, big fires (think 787 batteries), and a myriad of other problems. Thinking on our feet, on the fly innovations in the field, under some real time pressure. Want to see excited people? How about someone with a $250m piece of revenue generating equipment that is disabled. You would have excelled. The stuff you have done is as good as anything I've seen.