My sunroof is getting cancelled!

[TxGerman]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I often wish I could go back in time and slap whoever ordered my car with a sunroof, and change it to no sunroof. I have no real clue as to what you are spending for the sunroof delete, but that is not a cheap project. I am guessing 15 to 20K if you do a full repaint on the roof.

In the 30 years I have owned my 911 I have opened the sunroof three times. In Acadia national park in Maine, In San Diego and Monterey, CA. Any other time the windows are up and the heat or AC is on.

My car is a fat pig at 2,741 pounds with full carpet and floor mats, and full OEM heater and four AC condensers and leather seats, a gallon of water in the washer bottle, huge battery. tool kit, and spare.

Originally Posted by SCforme

Just curious, why not just remove the sunroof panel, motor and other equipment and weld in or bond in one of the readily available metal or carbon fiber panels designed to simply replace the existing sunroof panel? Seems like it would be a lot quicker, easier and less costly than replacing the entire roof.

I recently did a glass out re-paint and had the sunroof deleted at that time. I opted for cutting out all the sunroof support sheet metal, retained the primary structural support of the roof and installation points for the bows (and additional bows now needed). Welded in the metal sunroof panel and the result was very minimal body work, filler, blocking, etc. and when looking at the roof, before and after paint, you can't tell there was ever a sunroof from the factory. All in, the incremental cost to do this on top of the paint job was ~$3k-4k. I had planned on repainting my car, so this was just a bit of added scope when I decided it was now or never! I'm not saying other methods/ways are wrong, merely offering my path as one solution.

[Steve W]

Nice! So if you were to add the cost of paint and labor for painting the roof, that could be another $2500 (?) alone, or more) if you weren't painting the rest of the car, totaling $6500-$7500? So how much more or less than the $2000 I spent for the non-sunroof piece, plus the labor and paint to install and paint, maybe it's not that much more or if so maybe another $1-2k? I don't know because of all the other parts I'm having them prep and paint. Also I don't know if anyone else could do a complete gutter unfold and reinstall of a roof like they did, but I know they've already done it a few times, so that made the decision easier. Here's some of the Getty parts that they were working on and getting ready for primer before cutting off the roof. Fiberglass pieces that I thought looked pretty good as is, but Alex in this picture, pointed out all kinds of flaws in the finish, however minor, in the pieces and wouldn't let it out of his shop without reworking them. Nothing wrong with the fit though, those were spot on. I guess 'race ready parts' are beginning to end up as 'show car' pieces!

[CBA]

I love your choice of replacing the roof Steve! I don't think it has been noted on this thread but you will have also have the proper roofline for a sunroof delete car. A sunroof car has a slightly different profile vs a non sunroof car. A sunroof car has a slightly different bow to allow clearance for the sunroof to open and close.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by 75 911s

Nice work so far Steve.

I can't remember what my net loss was. I think I remember the inner structure, motor, and everything that went with to be on the upper side of that weight estimation you made. I did a fennlane weld in panel.

I wish you luck on your headliner install. :-)

Thanks for the wishes, but I'm not an upholstery guy, and don't have the time to do what seems like a multiday job that I'd probably make a mess of. Joel there tells me that one of his previous businesses was doing custom aircraft interiors, which is 100% more experience than I have so I'll just leave it to him. I did order the non-sunroof headliner rods from Jason at Stuttgart Classica USA, which I hear are the only ones know to fit right. Not sure OEM Porsche was ever corrected. Hopefully the install goes right and looks tight. I'll take some pics of it when it's installed.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by CBA

I love your choice of replacing the roof Steve! I don't think it has been noted on this thread but you will have also have the proper roofline for a sunroof delete car. A sunroof car has a slightly different profile vs a non sunroof car. A sunroof car has a slightly different bow to allow clearance for the sunroof to open and close.

I never knew that. I did hear that roofs in early 911s were shaped a bit different than the roofs in the later cars, but I never looked and noticed - maybe that's what you're talking about.

[75 911s]

I'm curious about CBA's statement about profiles of sunroof vs non sunroof cars. I'll need to research this more as I'm very skeptical.

I do know that the sunroof panel itself is not the same bubble shape as the roofline, which is why some folks say not to use it as a delete panel.

That's why I used the old Fennlane panel, as it's English rolled to the right profile. The original panel is a different profile so that it can slide into the roof.

The roof replacement is definitely the best and that Is what I chose to do on my 77 for the sunroof delete. interestingly, it was a slick top from the factory and had a bad aftermarket sunroof installed a year after it was new.

Despite some saying not to use the sunroof panel to fill the hole, I've seen quite a few conversions done this way. The car I'm working on now did it this way and the roofline is imperceivable to a real slick top. I guess the question is how much filler was used.

[famoroso]

Thanks to this 2020 thread...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1076181-911-sunroof-cancelled.html

...and my lifelong hatred for sunroofs, I had Perfect Lines delete it from Vents, my 1989 M491 project car car, in 2021.

I was looking for A) increased headroom (my head hits G Body Sunroof ceilings on bumpy roads), B) strategic weight loss (I pulled 22.5 pounds of sunroof components out of the car) and C) improved aesthetics.



This picture illustrates the headroom opportunity cost associated with nasty sunroofs...



~1.6 inches from bottom of sunroof cassette to bottom of outer roof skin (i.e. the ceiling)...





The process...








The results...
















The full sunroof delete (parts, labor and primered roof section) cost $5,914 in 2021. I can only guess that it has gotten more costly during the intervening inflationary years.

[Steve W]

Frank, it is thanks to posts by you and germanwheels that pushed me over the edge and down the slope to do this! So danke!

A bit of progress to report, roof has been welded on, and the internal shield for the rear roof vent - the piece that blocks water from entering the headliner/cabin from the rear vents, has been removed from the old roof and welded into the new one. Also I had Alex add some spot welds at the gutters to help bond the roof to the chassis to possibly improve chassis stiffening and strength, rather than just the crimping over it as the factory does at the gutters. Theres some body work and finishing has to be done to the roof, pillars, and gutters, prior to primer, but here below you can see the vent shield:

[brian bramble]

The 1975 911s that I have been posting about for a while is on the road. My last post was about it sputtering on the lower Rs. The general consensus was its been sitting for a long long time, put fresh gas and a injector cleaner through her and drive the sputter out of her.. The sputtering has gotten worse. So I took her out and warmed her up and sprayed the engine compartment around the area where the cap covers the 2 throttle bodies, and the engine responded .

So after looking around I found a vac line that was not attached to anything on one end. I don't know what the thing is called but it looks like the fuel filter but smaller some of the lines from it do go to the fuel filter and some go to where the injector lines come together . its the line that comes straight out of the top of that 'whatever it is"

I need to know where that line is supposed to hook up to see if it helps with the sputtering.

[Steve W]

Update, the body parts have been primed. Here are some of them, to be prepped prior to paintwork. Everything is turning out very nice.




Note the cut outs on the underside of the rear bumper. This is to relieve some of the air pressure from the parachute effect of the rear bumper, such as you see done on all the later GT cars. Credit to Joey Seely's Project Nasty.



Those that know the RUF style bumper might notice that side curves of the oil cooler opening were reshaped to mimic more of the shape of an authentic RUF listed for auction at the most recent Air/Water event. Instead of a pair of half round circles they are now more a pair of tapered curves.





The roof has been welded on and finish body work completed, getting ready for primer:

[Cairo94507]

Very cool to see this ready for primer.

[almostordinary]

slick.

[trentwat]

Nice project looks good so far…I considered doing the same thing, but ended up with the weld in panel. The whole sunroof assembly was deleted…saving weight. There was a little bondo, but it did come with a handy tool for shaping the roof.

[safe]

I'm removing my non sunroofed roof for a carbon fiber panel...

I have a friend who deleted his sunroof for a carbon fiber roof. It was not that involved, basically cutting the roof saving 1 inch of panel to bond to. Removing the sunroof reinforcement. Gluing down the new panel (grinding down the edges before) a little bondo and then paint.
Zero welding or messing with the gutters.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by trentwat

Nice project looks good so far…I considered doing the same thing, but ended up with the weld in panel. The whole sunroof assembly was deleted…saving weight. There was a little bondo, but it did come with a handy tool for shaping the roof.

That looks great!

Originally Posted by safe

I'm removing my non sunroofed roof for a carbon fiber panel...

I have a friend who deleted his sunroof for a carbon fiber roof. It was not that involved, basically cutting the roof saving 1 inch of panel to bond to. Removing the sunroof reinforcement. Gluing down the new panel (grinding down the edges before) a little bondo and then paint.
Zero welding or messing with the gutters.

How was the stiffness/defection? They have a 911 here they showed me with a carbon fiber roof replacement panel they did, and with the palm of your hand you could deflect it easily like pressing down on a plastic trash bin lid. Didn't instill a lot of confidence in the event of a roll over, not to mention loss of chassis stiffness.




Latest update, the fiberglass body parts have been painted and are being cleaned up and polished: front hood and rear decklid (both sides outside and inside), rear tail, and RUF front bumper:








And the roof is primered.



Close ups of the gutter lines:







Window frames were cleaned and prepped, including removing a bit of rust that was in the lower corners, and the full cowl down to the front trunk is primered so that the new paint blends perfectly from the roof, down the A-pillars, past the wipers and to the hood.



And testing for fitment of the rear bumper, with a floor jack, plastic bottle, and a Ferrari 330!

[safe]

Originally Posted by Steve W

How was the stiffness/defection? They have a 911 here they showed me with a carbon fiber roof replacement panel they did, and with the palm of your hand you could deflect it easily like pressing down on a plastic trash bin lid. Didn't instill a lot of confidence in the event of a roll over, not to mention loss of chassis stiffness.

He got a carbon skin with "cross" molded into it on the underside so it would be stiffer. But he has a roll cage in the car. I didn't try pushing on it
My car has a cage too.

[$yncro]

Looking good man! What are the sizes of those wheels? Filled up the wheel wells nicely.

[Jonny042]

Originally Posted by Steve W

How was the stiffness/defection? They have a 911 here they showed me with a carbon fiber roof replacement panel they did, and with the palm of your hand you could deflect it easily like pressing down on a plastic trash bin lid. Didn't instill a lot of confidence in the event of a roll over, not to mention loss of chassis stiffness.

Steve, your car is looking great! Can't wait to see it all done.

Not all carbon parts are made the same, and just like fiberglass, there's a huge variety of construction methods and stiffness/strengths possible. There's a lot of flimsy garbage out there. Plastic trash bin is a good way to describe it!

I've built a carbon roof for my latest project that I will be able to stand once it's bonded in. The carbon roof structure weighs about 3000g (6.6lbs). I've seen skins advertised as light as 1.2kg. That would be great for a race car. I'm guessing that's the sort of construction that you pressed on at the body shop.

Originally Posted by Jonny042

Continuing on the roof skin topic, this was by far the largest infusion I've done. It took about an hour to get to this point:



It's starting to become obvious why the oven has to be so large!



It turned out pretty great!





The final trimmed part will be about 3000g, or 6.6 pounds. Is it a bit heavier than you might expect? Well, it is fully my intention to post a picture of me STANDING ON THE ROOF once it's bonded to the shell. Preliminary testing indicates this has the strength and stiffness for that to happen.
If someone wanted a lighter version for a racecar I could make one as light as 1500g, but IMO it would be completely unsuitable for a street car.



My measurements and calculations tell me if I was to remove the roof skin from a non-sunroof car, that piece of steel would weigh 13.5 pounds, so about double that of the carbon skin.

The truthful and realistic weight savings for removing a sunroof and all its mechanisms, cutting a larger hole, and bonding on a carbon skin will be in the neighborhood of 35 pounds.

[AnimusAudens]

Looks like an awesome build! Very interested to see the finished product.

[Kevin Stewart]

Nice!