Warren, Accessory Control Knobs on Early S

[Cordts]

Hopefully someone with a early 67 S will reply to this and clear it all up.. I expect that this real early car, has no diagram/pic on top of the knob..

[kilodawg]

You might find this thread interesting both for the photo and the potential contacts.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13517&highlight=knobs

The picture of the '67 on this thread clearly has the right knob ID'd as a warning flasher. That could leave the other two to be fog lights and rear defroster. Interestingly, the knobs don't quite sync up with yours.

I'd PM Alan and see if he can clarify it for you.

[Cordts]

My hazard knob/switch is located below the dash at the ignition switch,,, and the third knob in the dash is nothing like that hazard,, I dont think it is a hazard at all..

[kilodawg]

A little more searching and I came across this thread.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11540&page=2&highlight=dash+switches

Soterik would be your man to ask with 5 '67S's I think he will give you the answer you need. He does state in the thread however that in '67 the Webasto heater was standard. So that may be your answer. Could the heater have been removed?

[joefrantz]

Originally posted by kilodawg
Joe,

I just looked at a book I have on the earlier cars. It has some interior shots of a '68. The row of three knobs is there but the left and center knobs look different. Instead of having a concave surface the are convex with no discernable central feature.

Pages 50 and 51 of the Johnson restorer's guide show pics from 66 thru 68 with everything through 67 showing non-rubber concave switches. The 67 with chrome bases. The 68 pic shows the rubber donuts, and the text says the rubber started in 68.

Peter Morgan (Original 911) shows a 65 dash on page 16 &19 with a concave light switch. Page 19 also shows a 67S dash with concave switches and chrome bases.

Pages 18 & 20 show a RHD 68 with non-rubber convcave switches.
Page 44 shows a RHD 73 with non-rubber concave switches and page 49 shows a RHD 73 RST with non-rubber headlight switch.

It looks like the rubber donuts may have been US only -- at least through 73.

I also think it's pretty conclusive that a 67 S came with non-rubber donut chrome base switches.

Kilo -- I also remember seeing the flat knobs you describe, but I can't remember where and haven't found any pics in my books. What book are you looking at?

Joe

[kilodawg]

Joe,

An oldie from '77 I got when new. "The Porsche Book-A Definitive Illustrated History" by Lothar Boschen and Jurgen Barth.

Picture in question is on Page 121. I'll try to scan it tomorrow.

[randywebb]

Did Porsche ever use the kind of knobs used on VW's in the 1970s? IIRC, the translucent plastic had a symbol on it and was encased in a hard rubber 'knobby' surround.

[kilodawg]

My 914 had something similar.

[javadog]

Cordts,

A couple of things come to mind. As far as I know, a 1967 911S came with the auxiliary heater as standard. Perhaps the heater was removed at some point in the past and the switch remained, just to fill the hole in the dash. Perhaps you should look in the trunk and trace where the wires go.

A '67 had the plastic knobs with a chrome base. The rubber covered knobs started in 1968, for US cars. ROW cars didn't have the additional rubber covering because they were added to satisfy safety requirements here in the US only. Ditto for the symbols.

Looking at the switch with the black plastic base, it's possible that you are looking at a part that was replaced at some point in the car's life. That looks like an earlier switch.

If the car were mine, I'd look in the smuggler's box to see if there was evidence of a gas heater ever having been fitted. If I was positive that one had never been there, then I'd trace the wires from the switch.

Personally, I'm still betting on the gas heater.

JR

[kilodawg]

JR,

I'm attching this pic from the link I referenced above. It is a '67 that would appear to show all three switch bases in black plastic. Your assertion is that these would have all be replacements is that correct? It makes sorting this out confusing to say the least.

[javadog]

kilodawg,

No, that's not why I made that statement. The fact that one switch out of three was different suggests that it was changed.

As we all know, there are few absolutes when it came to what Porsche put on a particular car when it was built. Even Porsche sometimes get it wrong, as evidenced by errors in the parts diagrams or in "Certificates of Authenticity." There are also differences from market to market and sometimes people see something that was peculiar to a particular export market and assume all cars of that age were the same.

It's generally accepted that the early switches had black plastic bases and these were changed to similar switches with chrome bases around the time that the car in question, Cordts' '67 911S, was built. Perhaps the first part of the production run used the earlier switches. I don't really know, as I haven't looked into the question. It wasn't unusal for Porsche to use up remaining stockes of a superceded part and change to something else in the middle of the production run of a particular model.

If you want, I can take a look at a '67 here and see what it has for switches.

I'm still trying to help Cordts figure out his original problem, which is the function of his third switch.

By the way, the photo you posted is a good example of the differences that can be found. The order of the switches is different in that photo than others that were mentioned in this thread. Note the location of the hazard switch.

JR

[ttweed]

Cordts-

I posted my answer and pics in the thread you started on the Early S Registry forum.

TT

[Cordts]

Alright,, Thanks for all the help here.. Im sure we are getting close to the final answer..

The first switch (closest to the driver is the Fog Light switch, it has white wires with a yellow stripe,, and is lighted in the center. As this pic shows..




The second switch is unknown, I think it is the electric rear window defogger switch, this car does have the wires in the rear window. This switch has a brown wire, ground and two black with a red stripe wires going to it,, and is lighted in the center as in this pic



The black and red wires go to a relay mounted just over the fuse box.. as in this pic



The rear window is clearly heated.. as in this pic..



Then the third switch,, must be the Webasto unit,, has Blue, Purple, White with red, Red, Black and a couple of Brown... is lighted in the center..as in this pic..



It appears to go to this relay.. and some terminate at this harness



A close up of the harness end,, just below the relay as in the pic above..

And then down to the Sumgglers Box.. as in this pic..



Although there is noting left of the Webasto,, should I get one? or does that question open up a box of worms



The emergency lights are controlled by this switch, please lay down on the floor next to your computer to view the pic properly

[javadog]

Okay,

What I would take from all of this, short of getting out a wiring diagram to confirm it, is that at some point in the car's past, a previous owner replaced the original rear window with a later fixed type. The hazard switch was moved and replaced by a rear window defroster switch. That would explain two things; why the hazard switch wasn't in the middel position and why the switch that was later put there doesn't match the other two.

At some point, the auxiliary heater was pulled out and the switch remained, as I originally thought.

JR

[Cordts]

JR,, the center swith does match,, the problem is that the chrome trim ring is missing and so is the knob.. I can switch the trim and the knob for either of the other two switches to the missing oone inthe middle.. I looked on the wiring diag for this year and there is no mention of the Black/red wire..

[kilodawg]

Javadog seems to have a good train of thought going. Just a question or two for general understanding since I have a '73 that had aftermarket AC which in the smuggler's box which I removed.

I'd read somewhere that in the smugglers box the large capped (in the picture) duct was an inteface to the heater. is that correct? And therefore I'd assume that the cap was installed after heater removal?

Also any idea what was the purpose of the perforated cover at the bottom of the picture with the wire coming from it? I'd assume this was heater related to since my '73 lacks it.

[Cordts]

Kilo - That capped area goes to the center tunnel.. The air for the Webasto was brought in from the rear of the tunnel,, that explains the vent over the transmission linkage behind the seats.. the air intake was there and it was brought through the tunnel then up through that capped place in the bottom of the Box.. thats how it ws explained to me.. that cap just closes off that air passage..

[Cordts]

So how about this little switch.. with the white knob



It is located just above my right knee,, under the dash,, kinda hidden..

Here is the rear of the switch..



It goes to this relay,, which is to the right of the foglamp relay



This relay is fed from the fuse box by a brown wire on #7 and another brown wire on #10 The out of the relay is #37 and it goes to that switch and terminates into these connectors.. on the other side of the switch

[javadog]

Cordts,

Here's what we know:

There was a heater; it is now gone.
The rear window isn't original. Someone can correct me but a heated glass rear window for a Targa started in 1969, I think.
The center switch should have been the hazard switch.
There is non-factory wiring attached to the center switch.
The hazard switch looks like something completely different, from what I can see of your photo.


So, when they added the rear window, they would have added wiring to power it. They could have done one of two things; adapted a switch and wiring from a later car or used the existing switch and added wire. The black/red wires may not match the 1967 wiring diagram since the wiring may not be from a 1967 car.

It's hard for me to tell what exactly they have done. Even though your photos are good, I can't see enough detail to identify terminal numbers and the like. Likewise, my diagrams are 10 miles away and the nearest '67 911 is 15 miles away. Sometimes it's hard to figure things out unless you have the parts laying in your hands.

If you want to pull the switches out and give me some part numbers, I can tell you what they might have originally been used for.

I have no idea about the white switch, at the moment. My first thought was that it might have been a hidden kill switch but that's doubtful looking at the 2 connectrors. The next most popular add-on would be driving lights or a horns but the way the guy wired them doesn't make much sense.

JR

[Cordts]

Java,, Thanks again for all the help..

The rear window is not the original and actually there are no terminals hooked up for the defroster.. Even though there is a defroster switch,, its wires go through relays and end up no where.. So,, consider it removed,, wiring and all.. it was a mess.

The Webasto is gone even though some wiring is there and much of it goes nowhere and isn't terminated properly.. so consider it gone,,as it already is,, it too was a mess.

Are you certain that there was a emergency switch here on this very early S?? Ther is no wiring in the area where this switch would have been placed if it were in its proper position,, according to your notes.

It appears to me that the switch and wiring was added to the passenger compartment and it appears that the wiring was added to the rear lamps... so it leads me to believe that it was added as a safety upgrade.. I remember that the British cars that I worked on,, up to 20 of them,, did not have emergency flashers,, my last one being a 76TR4a and a 67MGB,, they didn't even have back up lights.. so is it possible that this 911 67 did not have Emergency lights either.

I don't know who the 'Jack Legg" was that messed with this wiring,, but I'm on my way to clearing it up..

that little switch at the top of the right knee?? It went no where also..