basic driving practice cone layouts

Phoenix · Phoenix's Garage

Work and our newborn son have kept me extremely busy and it's been quite a while since I've been on the board. From my quick surf today, it's as lively as ever.

I am hoping to bounce an idea around the group.

Spring is coming and Phoenix will soon emerge from hibernation. At the same time I know that my work schedule will keep me from several autocrosses and driver's ed events (e.g.: April events are pretty much out for me).

All that said, I do want to personally keep practicing the basics in a safe environment. By basics I mean, judging braking distances, heal and toe shifting into a turn, threshold braking, double clutching, and other basics. I have had a few classes, been reading books (currently Vic Elford's latest) and want to practice between those Autocrosses and Driver's Ed sessions I can attend.

My thought is to take advantage of one of the many empty parking lots in my area. Essentially to get 20-30 cones and set up my own little practice areas to help me work on these. I'm not talking about any kind of "event" here as there are too many liability, insurance and organizational issues with that. This would be for me personally and I do plan on getting permission from the lot owners before moving forward.

My questions to the group:
1) has anyone done this anything like this before

2) is there anything beyond liability of the lot owner / lot owner permission I need to think about? (If it's really this simple, why aren't more people doing it?)

3) what else could I safely practice in this environment?

4) what type if cone layouts should I consider to help me practice the above safely?

Any thoughts, input, guidance?

All the best... Oliver

Amail · 03-09-2009, 03:54 PM

Your biggest hurdle will be finding a lot owner that doesn't care about the liability, or finding a policy that makes this economically sound. Other than that, you may have problems with other people coming onto the lot, or maybe calling the cops to report the "durn fool teenagers doing donuts in a parking lot".

I've never heard of anyone doing this, but there's lots of things I don't know. If you do this, try making a sqaure course. Hold the wheel still (to the right, or to the left, doesn't matter), and use throttle inputs to rotate the car around the corners. Basically, steer a circle but drive a square. It's great practice for throttle steering.

Practice heel/toe on the street. This isn't a high performance only kind of thing.

Phoenix · Phoenix's Garage

I appreciate your response Amail.
When you say "finding a policy that makes this economically sound", are you thinking insurance?

I guess I'm being a bit naive in thinking this shouldn't be a major or complex project/ issue. Simply someone who wants to learn more about how to drive their car better and trying to create a safe environment in which to do so. The parking lots I have in mind are for long closed retail stores, have no obstructions to run into, are flat and completely empty.

I wonder if I approach the local Sherrif's office or even the State police if they could be helpful. Again, trying to do this in a safe approved manner.

Rrrockhound · Rrrockhound's Garage

As a rock collector (hence my screen name) I sometimes want to enter dangerous locales for collecting (abandoned quarries, etc.). I keep blank copies of a standard waiver in my car for this reason. Puts the property owner at ease. You might want to think about something like that.

941MXVET · 03-10-2009, 08:06 PM

My wife and I do just what your describing. We purchased 30-40 cones from Wal-Mart, and set up a simple AX course at our local event center parking area. Noone has ever said anything to us, but a few have stopped to watch. Now that we've done this a few times, we have other drivers who would like to join us!!!

It's always easer to get forgiveness then permission

941MXVET · 03-10-2009, 08:15 PM

As for lay-out, we just keep playing around, and changing the course! It's part of the fun! You can also check out SCCA websites, they sometimes post AX track lay-outs. Good luck!

Amail · 03-11-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

When you say "finding a policy that makes this economically sound", are you thinking insurance?

Yes, I'm talking about an insurance policy.

As to "forgiveness is easier than permission", that's normally true. Except, in this case, not only do you not know who you'd be dealing with, but you don't know what their perceived liability would be. You've heard it before - this is a litigious society. If I were the owner, I'd want to be darn sure that:

1 - You have no recourse to sue me in the event you hurt yourself or your equipment on my property
2 - There's no possible way anybody else could get injured
3 - You've got insurance to cover damage done to my property, and damage you suffer from defects in my property.

From my point of view, there are too many variables to feel comfortable letting you do that on my property. Lose your brakes and crash into my warehouse? Take a corner too hot and go thru my fence? The pothole developing in the south corner is really starting to crumble. What if you take that at speed and lose control? What's my liability then?

High performance driving is huge fun, and ultimately can make you a safer driver, but practicing it requires a unique set of precautions. If a reasonable attempt has not been made to address these precautions, I think it would be very hard for the property owner to defend himself in the event something goes wrong. A waiver is one thing, but I doubt it would be worth much more than the paper it's written on.

So, that's what I would say if you asked to drive on my lot. I know, for an absolute fact, that there are lot owners out there that would have no problem with it whatsoever. Thing is, you don't know until you ask permission.

GH85Carrera · GH85Carrera's Garage

The easiest way to do that is find the local PCA region. They may well have an autocross program. If not get involved and start one! The national club provides the insurance for free to the local region. I suspect that insurance would be very expensive on your own. We charge just 15 bucks to PCA members to run at our autocross.

berettafan · 03-11-2009, 08:51 AM

Really, really, really bad idea.

Amail · 03-11-2009, 08:54 AM

$15 for autocross?!? That's a screaming deal! We charge $45 in San Diego, includes two practice sessions consisting of four laps each, plus a timed session consisting of one practice lap and three timed runs. We do provide free drinks.

Zeke · 09:18 AM

The coolest thing I ever found was some federal property where the guards went home on the weekends. This was back in the 80's and the local sheriff would drive by and just watch. It was out of his jurisdiction. I don't think there's any unattended property anywhere these days.

Anyway, all kinds of things went on there and nothing really bad ever happened that I know of. Parents took their teenagers over to practice drive, we raced karts and nearby they flew remote control model planes. When I talk about the good ol' days, I mean it.

This is the place in Laguna Nigel, CA.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&ll=33.560779,-117.711307&spn=0.005972,0.012939&t=h&z=17

Amail · 03-11-2009, 09:26 AM

I learned to drive in the parking lot of Jack Murphy Stadium, now Qualcomm Stadium, in San Diego in the mid 70's. It was a lot different then - no guard shack at the entrance, just cruise in and do your thing.

GH85Carrera · GH85Carrera's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amail

$15 for autocross?!? That's a screaming deal! We charge $45 in San Diego, includes two practice sessions consisting of four laps each, plus a timed session consisting of one practice lap and three timed runs. We do provide free drinks.

We have 8 timed runs each and time for some non-timed fun runs after the event. The track rental is zero so it is all profit for the club. It is a fabulous track.

This is our track.

Phoenix · Phoenix's Garage

Thanks for all the great feedback. I'm both jealous and inspired by those that have been able to do this on their own. I've been a PCA member for years. My problem is I can't ever seem to get to the events because of work so it's time to take matters into my own hands.

Amail - I aware there are liability issues. I've planned on owner persmission from the start and will continue down that path. The waiver idea is a good one. I have a friend who could write something up as a starting point for owner discussions. I've optimistically ordered 50 cones and will start this weekend finding lots and identifying owners.

There has to be a way to do safely and legally.

LakeCleElum · 03-12-2009, 06:34 PM

I used to do this a lot for classes I taught. Over the years, it became harder and harder to get the permission of the owners.

Anyother issue to think of: When driving, you will attract attention and even a crowd at time. You have to watch for idiots walking/driving across your course.....Happens more than you would think......

941MXVET · 03-12-2009, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Amail - I aware there are liability issues. I've planned on owner persmission from the start and will continue down that path. The waiver idea is a good one. I have a friend who could write something up as a starting point for owner discussions. I've optimistically ordered 50 cones and will start this weekend finding lots and identifying owners.
.

Could you find a public lot? The lot we use is owned by the county, it's used for events (though not necessarily driving ones) and there is only one entry\exit. It's kind off an overflow\trailer parking lot used for horse type events at a rodeo complex. Maybe your town has something similar?