Changing VIN

[Grady Clay]

I wonder where all those original Cobra VIN plates go that Carroll Shelby sells?

Next week I’ll try and talk to my contacts in Colorado DMV and Colorado State Patrol.

Best,
Grady

[Kroggers]

I have always found this subject interesting - at the end of the day what is the core part of a car.

If I crash my car (twist it round a post), and then purchase an empty and straight shell that has been parted. Fix all the rust etc and put all the components from my crashed car on it, I will still no longer have "my" car as I now have new titles and vin.

But if I was to then cut the vin out from my crashed shell and move it over to the shell I purchased so that I can continue to have "my" car - then this is not legal, correct...

[Wil Ferch]

I know guys who have a 66 Mercury....and buried the chassis in their back yard. but not before cutting out the VIN and applying it somewhere on the chassis of a Cobra kit car they've built and registered. They feel OK doing that because they "know" where the real Mercury is....underground. It will never re-surface ( literally and figuratively) as a competing car with duplicate VIN.

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

I know guys who have a 66 Mercury....and buried the chassis in their back yard. but not before cutting out the VIN and applying it somewhere on the chassis of a Cobra kit car they've built and registered. They feel OK doing that because they "know" where the real Mercury is....underground. It will never re-surface ( literally and figuratively) as a competing car with duplicate VIN.

But this I will assume is not legal...

[Wil Ferch]

...maybe not even "moral".....but ask yourself.....who/what is being hurt if the chance of duplication is "zero"? Other than perhaps being outside the letter of the law....who is hurt? Hw much of the car needs to be original for it not to be outside the law when "extensive" modifications are made? The whole idea makes more sense if there was a uniform standard that says something like, "when the extent of the modifications do not exceed 50% of the car, etc, etc".....but then....what constitutes "percentage"?. By cost? Volume? Weight?....gets tricky again.

[dad911]

Once the VIN is cut out of a car, there is no way to prove it wasn't stolen or acquired in an illegal way.

The only time I've seen it done legally was when the state on NJ confiscates a 'drug' car, they remove and re-assign a new VIN number. I assume it is so a criminal cannot track down their old car.

That 'Cobra/66 Merc' could have been inspected and receive a title from the state. How does he explain it to the police officer if he gets pulled over, shows his registration, and the car is not a 66 Merc? Perhaps that worked in the 60's, but today I would expect the officer might impound the car thinking it's stolen.

Originally Posted by Kroggers

....
But if I was to then cut the vin out from my crashed shell and move it over to the shell I purchased so that I can continue to have "my" car - then this is not legal, correct...

Not legal here in the US.

[dad911]

Originally Posted by Wil Ferch

...maybe not even "moral".....but ask yourself.....who/what is being hurt if the chance of duplication is "zero"? Other than perhaps being outside the letter of the law....who is hurt? ......

Perhaps no one, but the possibility exists that even if I were to to it, and disclose it to a buyer, future buyers may not know, and eventually someone can get scammed.

Happened with Pesto's RS, http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/365081-73-rs-fraud-must-read.html and another member here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/570332-missing-vin-chassis.html

[Wil Ferch]

My point is how far can you go to "modify" something....and still be legal?. What if the Merc were instead cut all up, body discarded, and rebuilt to smaller wheelbase and a "Cobra" body put on top? Is that better than truly burying the original Merc car in the ground..... so it can never show up again (illegally as a duplicate), and only re-using the VIN plate?. Both the Merc and the Cobra would end up with similar "Architecture" ( if you will) and both would have "Ford" engines that need not match the chassis as "original delivery". Doesn't have to.

I do however, see the points you are making as to "how" a VIN can be replaced with legal backing vs. not having official backing for the change. I'm not altogether condoning this....but I lay it out there as a question.

[Deschodt]

This is one of those things similar to the fact that Marijuana is illegal but Alcohol is fine...
You can argue till you are blue in the face about the merits of each but one is legal and one is not... Or about the % of parts transfered to one chassis to the other... it's illegal...

My question is, though, who the hell would know ? (assuming you did not post here ;-) If you owned both cars and did a nice job welding and painting, who on earth would notice but the most anal Porsche fanatic looking for the secret Vin behind the dash ? (got chalk?)
Certainly not smog stations or the DMV.

The only real issue there in my mind is resale... you have to keep the car forever or you'll be shortchanging the next owner... that's the real sticky part... other than the illegality bit. What you decide to do with your 2 cars inside your garage is your business and pretty damn hard to prove...

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by TT Oversteer

I think everyone agrees that it is illegal to alter a VIN especially with the intent to defraud or mislead, or to remove evidence from stolen property. That is not what I am discussing here.

f my 73 is destroyed to the point where the only recognizable part remaining is the section of metal where the VIN is stamped, is it still a car? Can I then rebuild it using 99% of another car that I legally own? Does the donor car have to legally cease to be a "car" and then become a salvage titled collection of parts for me to then cut out its VIN plate and weld what's left around my '73 VIN plate? Again, have I "altered" the VIN of the '87 or have I merely attached the salvaged '87 to my repaired '73?

In the end if nothing was stolen and there was no intent to defraud, have I "altered" a VIN or committed a felony?

.

I would argue, the fact that you were putting a late model engine and transmission into an "early" year car VIN, would show intent to skirt the smog laws.
Who knows if it would hold up in court.
eric

[Joe Bob]

Removing a replacing a VIN is illegal, period.....

Kit cars get an assigned VIN from the Highway Patrol after they are inspected.....

Some Kit Cars (in CA) get an exemption from smog, only 500 a year.....

Other kit cars need to install an engine complaint with modern smog laws.....

Shelby supposedly had VINs issued but never used for frames that were in storage......DMV let him get away with it. Dunno why.....

[ossiblue]

The very issue brought up by Greg is currently unfolding on the "marketplace" forum:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-marketplace-discussion/572403-so-72-86-a.html

In short, a very extensive build using an 86 tub and a 72 front clip. Car is registered as a 72 and the seller wants $85K for the car. Apparently done without the DMV being informed, and now it's resell time. How many of you would drop $85K on a car like this?

[80-911SC]

3 quick and maybe dumb questions .... just to stir the pot

an early 80 SC "updated to a " 964 " look = smog as 80 or a 91/92 as the look implies?

an 80 SC backdated to long hood = smog as 80 or 72 as long hood implies?

or 72 updated to look like an SC= no smog as 72 or smogged as 78 look implies ?

[Augustus]

If interested check with Michael Sheehan...Or Drainias (sp) legal files SCM.

Old '50's racing Ferrari is totaled and burnt in the '50's

Car sat somewhere in Europe for many, many years.

Someone buys the wreck in the 1980's. It does not have it's serial number. It's been cut from the car. Buyer of the wreck rebuilds the car and looks like new and has had the serial number re stamped. Car is worth millions...

He starts showing the car and after awhile the owner of the serial number whom has also built a car starts to ***** and cry saying he has the original car.

One guy has the serial number the other has the car...

Law suits ensued and I don't recall the out come.

This has happened many times and not just with Ferraris.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by 80-911sc

an early 80 sc "updated to a " 964 " look = smog as 80 or a 91/92 as the look implies?

An 80 sc backdated to long hood = smog as 80 or 72 as long hood implies?

Or 72 updated to look like an sc= no smog as 72 or smogged as 78 look implies ?

80, 80, 72

jr

[BlueWing]

Here is something I always thought was borderline legal.

I see many of the 356 Speedster kits are registered as a VW. Say I built one today off a 55 Volkswagen pan, replaced the pans and some longatudes, jack points........only tunnel and VIN are original. Put the kit on the built pan, build a motor of my choice and go to the DMV.

I now have a 55 Speedster kit car on a 55 VW partial frame registered as a 55 VW.

Aside from being a kit car I barely have a 55 VW.

Also if I get yanked by an officer what are his options of what the reggie shows and what he is looking at? If I need to involve my insurance for a claim against me can they trump me with a non compliance vehicle? Claiming it is not the vehicle the DOT approved for sale and on the other level of not safely being constructed.

So if I buy a front clip of a 72, install it on a SC (72 oil tank as well) have not I built my own kit car?

Terry

[ratpiper71T]

First off no, I'm not a lawyer so you can trust my legal opinion,(lol)!

I think there are some concepts being confused here.

When a kit car is being titled as a 1965 cobra for example, it doesn't mean it has the VIN of a cobra, it just means the description of the type of vehicle is such- that it doesn't have to meet smog or safety(read equipment) regulations which only applies to new manufacture vehicles(yes we know it's new). The DMVs know the vehicle is designed to replicate a vehicle of a certain vintage and then for simplicity only puts the requirements of that year on the inspection smog test. So 'titled as a...' does not = 'VIN is...'
Second, the OP's question is quite simply answered with it's fraud. Anyone can argue until there 'blue in the face', but think about it. The intent is to change the VIN, period. Any path of modification that end with -' I did it to preserve the VIN of said car, whether it's for smog purposes, or restoration purposes it's wrong. Some say 'well I wanted the advantage of the galvanized body with this feature or that feature'- then why do you need the older VIN? 'I wanted to restore this vehicle that is special to me' then why do you need the VIN?- replacing all the panels around a VIN doesn't make the driving experience any more special- this is coming from a very sentimental person, by the way- it's essentially just being honest with ones self- it's being done to preserve the VIN, period.

Think about it this way( I know this may not be the best example)- so what if your wife dies. What if you can take someone elses living soul or being and transplant it into the body of the deceased loved one...now you've got your loved one back!.....right? I mean, it's the same thing right?

Or, better yet...

Your wife's body is destroyed and you can transplant her living soul into this big WWF guy's wrestler body? I mean., it's still her isn't it?

[dad911]

@Terry - If you build a car from pieces, NY DMV will inspect it and give you a title. You have to provide documentation of all parts.

I wrecked a 944 turbo, and moved my drivetrain to another 944 that had a salvage title(it was a theft recovery). I brought the car, when finished, to a NY inspection. Had to document all parts, and they put it on a lift, looked for welding (I did not 'clip' the car) and scraped various places under to car to check for original colors. I then received a title in the mail a few weeks later and could register it.

Bottom line is there is never a valid reason for an owner to cut the vin out of a car. That's why it's illegal.

Think about the reciprocal. If You were buying a car would you pay the same amount knowing the VIN was changed? No, it would be worth less, in fact I would never knowingly buy a car that had a VIN changed (worth zero to me). So changing a VIN would be defrauding a future owner.

[wayner]

Different states have different laws. You can't legally swap vins, but you can re-vin in some cases

"The bill allows kit cars and replica vehicles to be assigned a certificate of title bearing the same model year designation the body of the vehicle most closely resembles. Additional, but not identical legislation has been introduced in the New Jersey Senate in the form of S.B. 687."

SEMA SAN - SEMA ACTION NETWORK

and here for the list of states and regs

SEMA SAN - SEMA ACTION NETWORK

So, if you build up a 911 from parts and bean cans to make it look like a factory RSR, I suppose you can get an RSR title in some states (with a fresh state issued vin)

Note: this usually involves some verification of receipts and checking of component serial numbers to make sure parts were legally obtained.

[Wil Ferch]

All true as to the "legality" of doing this.

So I guess Porsche factory ( re: rebuild of 917's) and Vasek Polak's "switcheroo" for a Japanese client who bought "X" 917 and got "Y" 917 with "X" tags applied....qualifies as outright fraud. And even more interesting....Vasek Polak's story is in the public forum ( I think it was Excellence magazine)...and no one got arrested and no one "came-knocking".

Interesting.