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Angry 73 RS fraud must read

You can see the beginning of how my nightmare unfolded and pictures if you go to the 997 GT3 threads and look up Euro Delivery on the rennlist message boards...
I thought i was the proud owner of 9113601316. Took it to several historic rally events...I traveled all over europe with it...I was smitten...except the car just wasnt right in a few ways I returned it several times to Michael Rauh owner of Rauh motorsports in Schwansfort Germany..who by the way was also the owner of 1316 for the previous 11 years. I spent probably another $50k US in trying to get the car correct between transmission and engine rebuilds and odd bits and pieces....the car still wasnt correct...last year my local porsche dealer told me about the new RS I hurried down to the dealer purchased one and said I wanted my new RS to be special and had them create a car for me that had all exclusive options and even would mimmick the color of my 73 RS (even though it isnt the original color) They made me a car that was a one-off, I later learned that the Porsche factory itself does restorations....thats brilliant...So I decided to make a journey to Germany do a Euro-Delivery I would go to Italy pick up my 73 RS take one final tour of northern Italy with it as is...head up to Stuttgart...drop off my old one pick up my new one....it would be poetic...and I did just that...even took my new RS to prague for a weekend then I had to of course make my journey to the nurburgring and spent a very wet day there learning that very difficult track...then dropped it off in frankfurt to be delivered home...while its exhausted owner flew to Ibiza for a few days for some hard labor (of love that is) ... I was so excited when I got home...Ive been telling everyone of my epic journey...how amazing this trip was..and not able to wait for the first pictures of the porsche factory disassembling my 73 to bring her back to original condition as she once left that very factory 34 years ago. I was waiting now for weeks for that first call from porsche restoration shop...yes I see the number...its Porsche and im familiar with the number and the voice...I was waiting for him to tell me the car was disassembled and he had pictures for me to see...that however wasnt the news, the car wasnt disassembled, the car was a 73 911T not an RS...how could this be?? the numbers 9113601316 are stamped so proudly under the bonnet....the owner before me owned a porsche repair facility and his knowledge of these cars is way beyond any simpleton in the usa...he is after all an authentic german owning the authentic german carrera RS and being a true to life authentic german porsche service shop owner...with bare chassis scattered all over his warehouse and several little pockets of other chassis stashed away all over schwanfort in obscure garages i would think he would be well aware as to whether or not that 73 RS sitting in his garage was in fact ... real!! He is able to tell me whether or not the bumpers on the car are correct even several bolts and hoses...His knowledge eclipsed that of even the most intense porsche fans... He even showed me an 89 ruf with actual ruf numbers which was demolished and another 89 turbo body he was replacing those numbers with because in germany he so proudly told me..that is ok to do......He was able to tell me my rear control arms were from a 74 which had improved geometry and several more anchoring bolts...He told me every single piece that I would need to make my RS perfect...even said he may be able to find the original engine block and he was hot on the lead to find it..as well as an original set of RS wheels with original tires for when i want to show the car after it is restored to perfection.On his website you can see how he so proudly explains in detail how he so skillfully disassembled my motor and added more power to it...and supplied pictures...and you can even see a picture of me there..next to my RS ( did I say RS? I meant T) About $50,000 later and several attempts at perfection my poor little RS (T) just wasnt perfect so I took it to a friend in italy who said the gear box needed to be rebuilt this all happened while I was purchasing my new RS and decided to just redo the entire car at porsche, get the letter of authenticity, the nice little photo book of its restoration while all along adding miles of provenance to this car..But it looks like that happy ending is not in sight...

I called Michael Rauh, spoke to him on the phone and he said for the past 11 years prior to my purchase he has owned the car and it has never ever been in an accident never a wreck and he never even did any paint work on it (although i recall him telling me he recently put a fresh coat of paint on it when i bought it) and he reitterated this to The gentleman at porsche restoration the previous day. He also supplied them with the owner previous to him who owned the car for 10 years. Porsche has been very helpful throughout all this we are now tracking down the 911t and seeing where and what that car is and who the previous owners were... I told Michael that I want the money back for my RS or..I want the original chassis to magically appear at porsche factory so we can finally have this happy ending i discussed earlier...unfortunately i think my happy ending is best provided at the local massage parlor....

any input would greatly help

Old 09-02-2007, 07:58 AM
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For what it's worth, some info on what is legal and not legal as far as VIN tampering is concerned in the USA...

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm
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Old 09-02-2007, 08:21 AM
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WOW, I am sorry for anyone who has to go through this.
Old 09-02-2007, 08:33 AM
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the owner before me owned a porsche repair facility and his knowledge of these cars is way beyond any simpleton in the usa...he is after all an authentic german owning the authentic german carrera RS and being a true to life authentic german porsche service shop owner...

Yup, we are a bunch of simpletons here in the US
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Old 09-02-2007, 10:52 AM
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I hope it works out for you maybe the factory made a mistake when they saw the 74 control arms on the car.

Probably just some simpleton intern from the US made a mistake.

Last edited by snbush67; 09-02-2007 at 11:35 AM..
Old 09-02-2007, 11:11 AM
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What a bummer! I hope the seller will do the right thing, if he in fact knowingly defrauded you.

(and I realize that the simpleton comment was tongue-in-cheek)
Old 09-02-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesto360
the owner before me owned a porsche repair facility and his knowledge of these cars is way beyond any simpleton in the usa...he is after all an authentic german owning the authentic german carrera RS and being a true to life authentic german porsche service shop owner..
I believe he's showing how ignorant we all can be when we want to believe something and, put our trust in someone we believe is an expert
Old 09-02-2007, 11:23 AM
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I'm sorry to hear this happened. Have you found the owner of the actual 1316, yet? There are a lot of experts of (and owners of) the 73 RS at the Early S Registry forum. You could probably get some useful information there if you post the same story.

And just to be clear: the builder forged all of the VIN plates and chassis ID numbers and engravings onto a T chassis? With an established chain of ownership, I would think a good attorney in Germany could trace down the point where the forgery took place.
Old 09-02-2007, 11:29 AM
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I hate these types of posts, because there is always another side of the story. Each side will present their side most favorably to themselves, and the rest of us will come down on each side where we deem appropriate. I would rather read the result of your resolution instead of the progress of your dispute. This type of post will most likely be closed by the moderator due to snipping back in forth. Good luck on your resolution.
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:30 AM
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Sorry to hear about this. I know what a sour note this must be to what was an otherwise ideal Porsche journey.

What you need now is more info. Assume nothing.

A re-bodied car is not necessarily a fake but in your case it does sound like you were intentionally mislead which is fraudulent. The car is obviously not what it was purported to be.

Porsche itself has re-bodied wrecked race cars and it is considered acceptable and part of it's race history. Keep in mind to them a car is just a collection of parts and a chassis is just some of those parts. If a chassis is bent then it's a part that needs to be replaced so the car can get back out on the track.

My guess is that RS #1316 got wrecked bad enough that to try and salvage the chassis was not fiscally wise nor safe. Since the serial number is a later RS then there was a good chance that it was not a lightweight chassis so the T chassis made for a good donor. I myself would rather replace a chassis with a good one than try to weld on a front half of a car for example. It can be done if it is done the proper way and be safe but more often than not it is done incorrectly and is unsafe.

The point I'm trying to make here is I think it may be premature to be calling your car a fake. If there are two cars running around with the same VIN then obviously one is a fake or if your car has a funny looking VIN that isn't among the cars ever produced then it's probably a fake.

Is it re-bodied? Probably. Is it a fake? Maybe maybe not. Were you misled in a fraudulent manner? This is what you need to collect evidence on.

So all is not bad at this point. I'm sure the car is a great car when you take the emotion out of the picture. If it is possible for you to remove the emotion and pain of this sour experience you stand a better chance of success with an acceptable outcome of this situation.

Good Luck
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Last edited by Bobboloo; 09-02-2007 at 08:59 PM..
Old 09-02-2007, 11:33 AM
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Terrible. I hope it works out eventually.

As an envious side line, I wish I had the means to live the legend in your fashion. Both a 73 and new RS! Good for you!
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Old 09-02-2007, 11:42 AM
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I may be a "USA simpleton", but at least I did not buy a fake RS and lavish it with tens of thousands of dollars before realizing it was a 911T.

Although, I did fall for the fake Rolex for $20 when I was 13 years old...

Mike
Old 09-02-2007, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOMO3.2 View Post
I may be a "USA simpleton", but at least I did not buy a fake RS and lavish it with tens of thousands of dollars before realizing it was a 911T.

Although, I did fall for the fake Rolex for $20 when I was 13 years old...

Mike
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pesto360 View Post
...... He even showed me an 89 ruf with actual ruf numbers which was demolished and another 89 turbo body he was replacing those numbers with because in germany he so proudly told me..that is ok to do..........
WOW! In the USA we call that fraud. So you shouldn't be to too surprised if he did the same thing with your car.
Old 09-02-2007, 04:54 PM
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I am very sorry to hear of this.

Do you have detailed photos of your '73 911, especially the VIN stampings and Aluminum plate? Did you ever remove the passenger side lower dash pad piece and view/photograph the 7 digit # stamped there? There are many, many other things that should be looked at also like date stamps on things like the fuel tank, spare wheel, guages, etc. Does the markings on the glass offer clues? RS 1316 originally had a 2 stage heated rear window, is that still there? There are also several easy things to check that are very specific to the RS, like the rear trailing arms and rear tunnel support modifications. I would even have the Factory take out the windshield, remove the dash pad and look for the 7 digit # (same one stamped on the lower right dash) written on the top of the dash.

Is your '73 911 painted Grand Prix white with red lettering now? Originally RS 1316 was India Red (looks alot like Guards Red). I would have the Factory tell you what the paint color was originally for your car.

I would be very curious to know EXACTLY how the Factory restoration specialists came to the conclusion that your car is actually a '73 T.

As you can see from these several threads, a number of us here on Pelican and the Early S site worked on a clear case of fraud with RS #406. The owner of the fake car claimed several times his car was authenticated by the Factory too. Of course this could have been a lie but you need to verify for yourself if your car is indeed not RS #1316. If you would like any help there are several of us who would be glad to help you. Your GT3 RS is stunning

$$Going once going twice$$

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7290&highlight=406

Here the owner states the Factory authenticated his fake car.

http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11452&highlight=406
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Last edited by fryardds; 09-03-2007 at 06:11 AM..
Old 09-02-2007, 07:19 PM
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What exactly did the factory restoration center find to determine it was not the correct chassis? You should have the factory try to trace the real cars history as well as the T doner chassis.

Some of these RS recreations are so good I would say it could happen to anyone USA or Europe.
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Old 09-02-2007, 08:44 PM
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Those that are making negative comments to the simpelton joke did not understand it. The author is making fun of himself, not anybody else. That is why he used the "authentic german...." talk. I don't know the guy but I understand the joke. What he is trying to say is that you would think that if there is anybody who would know a Porsche it would be a german, like if there is anyone who would know a Corvette it would be an american. However, as luck would have it, this particular german did not know Porsches (or did he and tried to fool you, we will never know). I hope that explains it well. Good luck in your quest to now find a 73RS that matches your 08RS!
Old 09-02-2007, 09:54 PM
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Lots of details missing here. However, if this guy did own the car for 11 years, and then another guy 10 years before that, it's very unlikely that a fake was manufactured. Even 20 years ago during the last classic car boom, these RSs weren't that valuable...

-Wayne
Old 09-02-2007, 11:29 PM
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I am sorry to hear about what may have happened to you . I have been into these vintage Porsche's for a long time and can tell you they fake these cars just like they do any other valuable car. As much as I THINK I know about these cars I still get second and third opinions from different people . When I bought my RSR I had someone come in and go over the car and there are so many little intricacies to these cars they can be easy for someone who knows what they are looking at to tell very quickly that a car may or may not be authentic. Some fakes however are very good . all I can say is that if you ever buy another high dollar vintage car or if anyone else does who may be reading this spend the money to hire someone like Kevin Jennette or Kerry Morse to look the car over . If you can afford the frieght on one of these high dollar Porsche's then you can afford a couple of grand to have it checked out before breaking leather.

I would cut a guy some slack on the "simpleton" comment.. after all he may have just been ripped 200-300k ..or more depending on what currancy he is buying with
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Old 09-03-2007, 12:08 AM
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There are instances in the vintage car world of one car being restored from the engine and transmission, one from the bodywork and another from the chassis. All are accepted as bona fide by the owners association - I think this is where the vintage Bentley joke comes from: "120 were made originally, all 300 are still on the road"

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Old 09-03-2007, 02:07 AM
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