Anyone interested in getting a 911 repaired/checked on a Celette Repair Bench?

[Willem Fick]

Originally Posted by David Liam

Willem, very cool, good job. You could attach some type of hydraulic pulling system to your bench. It looks pretty stout, you could pull some light collision damage. Trust me, you'll probably need hydraulics, I find that so many 911s have been hit.

David, I have to concede that this jig was also built with an understanding of my own ability that only stretches so far in repairing really badly tweaked bodies. You are right that it is sturdy enough to pull out dents, and do slight amounts of straightening (up to 5 metric tonnes of force), but really is a welding jig first and foremost.

The base is plenty strong, so the view is that we could always later beef up the tooling should the need arise for more puling power.

[onboost]

I think the jig turned out very nice for what you intend to use it for.. with the right additional fixtures you should easily be able to identify the tweaks.

[eimkeith]

Originally Posted by David Liam

I started searching for Celettes many years ago and started to collect them. I quickly learned the key to the 911 is its chassis, it’s the most expensive and difficult aspect of any restoration or repair. Stunning paint and roaring engines get all of the attention, but you have to kneel down, look underneath and check the coachwork.

In my decades of experience with 911s, it’s the chassis that ultimately decides a car’s worthiness. That is why I ended up with a Celette collection. It’s really the only way to go when repairing a 911 Chassis. I repaired 911s on jack stands as a teenager, you can get by (I don’t want to deter DIY-ers), but there is no comparison to a Celette.

A Celette repair bench with dedicated Celette 911 Fixtures ensures a true chassis. The bench accompanied with a Celette Cobra Dozer allows collision damage to be persuaded back to its exact fixtured location. It takes a lot of finesse, tons of hydraulic force and experience to repair a tweaked chassis, but in most cases they can saved. They have to be severely mangled to be unrepairable. Most often I see front ends crushed in and rear ends pushed over to one side, no big deal to fix. Porsches are built to be pushed to the limit and drivers are meant to find that limit and become comfortable with that limit. Celettes have been around since the beginning of the 911, Porsche knew they would be needed and recommended their use in the factory manual.

When it comes to corrosion repair, Celettes are the best, fixture the chassis in and remove the corroded panels, no need to worry about it flexing around on you. Bolt the car down, bolt the repair panel down, everything will be perfectly aligned, one less thing to worry about while fitting and installing the replacement panel. That’s the case with the front pan and longitudinals anyway, some of the most critical mounting points on the chassis. When it comes to panel installation, I only butt weld when splicing into a panel. After metal finishing it makes the repair undetectable with a coat of primer. A Pro Spot PR-10 resistance spot welder makes welding the seams the push of a button. Plug welding is still required in many cases, but the PR-10 is a huge time saver and replicates the factory spot welds. One sided spot welding quickly replicates factory spots as well. It finishes repairs off nicely and looks factory correct.

If anyone is interested in getting their 911 on a Celette for any reason, please let me know. I often get requests to “check” a 911 chassis. It’s important to know a chassis is true before putting thousands of dollars and thousands of hours into a car. I am located in the Northeast, I usually try to lay low in the Porsche Community, so I am not a big picture poster, it’s just not my style as of now, but feel free to message me, post or get in touch with me, 845-605-9010, and I would be happy to share and discuss my experience. I have too many Celettes sitting around without 911s on them, I need help filling them up.

The posted pictures are what got me hooked on Celettes, hopefully it does the same for you.

I so agree. (Which is why we have 2.)

Can't do this stuff correctly without them.


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[Series900]

2?^^^. Lol. I think I may have btdt !!! Still working well? I am back to 1 due to space etc. it is the only correct check/repair for any unibody. It either fits or not. The cars were built on jigs, good enough is not. The machine part is a misnomer. You still need to know how and where to pull the energy without ripping the chassis apart. The jigs locate and maintain position, allowing the ART of the repair. My first 911, back in 80, a 65 crashed, came with manuals. I saw that bench and knew that's the right way. Been doing it that way ever since. Had 3 benches up and jigged at one point! Only way to do it right. I actually missed CELETTE sponsorship racing years ago. I put the bug in the ear, couple years later they sponsored something. Better than wurth and nascar. So much happier with the cayman pull system than the cobra double clamp hydraulics.

[David Liam]

I will be at the Lime Rock Vintage Festival all weekend. I am in the B paddock at the bottom of the hill. I have a Celette mocked up with replacement panels, PR-10 spot welder hanging over it and a rusty 911 tub on a rotisserie. Stop by and say hello if you're there.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I am going to try to come David, would be great to meet you. A lot on my plate this weekend though.

[sugarwood]

Which day is best to attend LimeRock ?

[Ferrino]

David, do you have any photos of the inner front fender repair, please? Curious to see how much you replaced and where the seam is.

[ClickClickBoom]

Sounds like someone is getting ahead of the game. With an average PCar approaching 25K and long hoods going up to and some vintages over 100K, chassis repair will be a specific craft. Good on him for finding a niche and running with it.

[onboost]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

Sounds like someone is getting ahead of the game. With an average PCar approaching 25K and long hoods going up to and some vintages over 100K, chassis repair will be a specific craft. Good on him for finding a niche and running with it.

Not sure how this is getting ahead of the game or a niche.. chassis repair has always been a specific craft, and any competent shop, restoration or collision, that is making repairs correctly on these cars, uses, has used, or has access to a Celette bench.

Just say'n..

[E Sully]

Well David,
if things get too crowded with all your Celette benches, I am not that far and would be happy to store one in the garage under my 911 for awhile.

[David Liam]

Originally Posted by blue72s

Hi David,

I have a question regarding the differences between the 911 and 930 turbo sheet metal mount (auxiliary carrier pin) in the front part of the floopan for the cross member.

According to the factory repair manual, the 930 carrier pin is installed 21 mm higher, but is the Celette fixture for this pin still the same as the 911 or a different one?

The reason I'm asking is because the 911 carrier pin is angled 3 degrees from vertical line and I need to know whether the 930 pin is positioned at a different angle or still the same at 3 degrees?

Below are 2 pictures (see red arrow on the drawing):

I hope to hear from you soon.

I was going through some later manuals that came with a '79 Turbo and I saw the page above, it reminded me of the quoted question. It doesn't mention an angle difference on the auxiliary carrier pin, but it does mention an incline difference in the rear that I noticed and mentioned in an earlier post on page one.

The engine mount location difference is interesting, anyone ever notice that before?

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by David Liam

The engine mount location difference is interesting, anyone ever notice that before?

In the complimentary 930 fixture set (551.309), there is a plate that mounts under the towers/fixtures for the rear engine carrier that offsets rearward - must be 30mm according to your manual. The plate is similar to the plates that mount at the front end of the bench, under the front a-arm & front shock tube fixtures (although different shape).

Piece #31 in the diagram...

[wpw3]

David, I hope the offer still stands. We are in the midst of an epic repair of my low mileage 993 which was rear ended some weeks ago in a hit and run accident. I am dedicated to the fix, as well as "doing it right" on a celette with the carrera 993 jigs to hold the frame whilst we do our work. My restorer is even convinced that he may snag one for his shop as on-site equipment. Is it possible to rent or otherwise employ one of the many celettes in your collection? We would be most appreciative.

[sugarwood]

Wow, that buckle above the wheel arch. Is the door ajar? Let us know if the celette works

[wpw3]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Wow, that buckle above the wheel arch. Is the door ajar? Let us know if the celette works

Sugarwood, I am amused by your exclamation "wow" :-) which is I suppose an indication of the perceived difficulty.

From what I understand from interviewing the (devout) porsche community porsche fabricators and restorers, it should not be unduly difficult if repaired or pulled entirely and strictly on the celette with porsche jigs. It makes the repair "true" in that the frame contact points either line up or they dont. When they do not, it demonstrates the amount of bend and therefore it informs the decision. Our current "advisor" has a career putting cars back in pristine condition. Instead of frankensteining I have purchased all new factory parts directly from the Porsche Classics factory.

I will certainly post the results of this journey. With this transparency it is a good thing I intend never to sell her!

wpw3

PS. That is an interesting handle, "Sugarwood"

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by wpw3

From what I understand from interviewing the (devout) porsche community porsche fabricators and restorers, it should not be unduly difficult if repaired or pulled entirely and strictly on the celette with porsche jigs. "

Often, when the quarterpanel is buckled like that, and the door frame is twisted, the same experts say RIP and buy another. But that's from a insurance salvage perspective.

[wpw3]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Often, when the quarterpanel is buckled like that, and the door frame is twisted, the same experts say RIP and buy another. But that's from a insurance salvage perspective.

Yes you are right. To fix it properly -- with a Celette and dedicated Porsche 911 jigs -- it takes expertise, significantly more time and more money. All in scarce supply with insurance copmany service providers. The insurance companies generally decide not to touch it. And from a business model perspective it makes sense.

But I have been afflicted with the psychosis of loyalty to this particular Porsche. One day she will repay the favor!

The buckle in the door is minor but we would greatly benefit from others' experience and expertise in getting out the kinks. I had hoped that David Liam of Runge Eleven (https://www.rungeeleven.com/) who initiated this thread with the initial post were still active. I would like to have someone of that realm on-hand and on-site before we start 'yanking.'

[onboost]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Often, when the quarterpanel is buckled like that, and the door frame is twisted, the same experts say RIP and buy another. But that's from a insurance salvage perspective.

I would disagree with that, especially with the 911 based cars. I have seen and dealt with any number of rear enders like this and can't remember a twisted door frame. A buckled door maybe yes. However, clearly from the pic one can see most of the energy absorbed through midway of the panel.

The right rear rail and rear cross-rail will require a pull and possible replacement. Something to be determined during tear-down.

Originally Posted by wpw3

Yes you are right. To fix it properly -- with a Celette and dedicated Porsche 911 jigs -- it takes expertise, significantly more time and more money. All in scarce supply with insurance copmany service providers. The insurance companies generally decide not to touch it. And from a business model perspective it makes sense.

But I have been afflicted with the psychosis of loyalty to this particular Porsche. One day she will repay the favor!

The buckle in the door is minor but we would greatly benefit from others' experience and expertise in getting out the kinks. I had hoped that David Liam of Runge Eleven (https://www.rungeeleven.com/) who initiated this thread with the initial post were still active. I would like to have someone of that realm on-hand and on-site before we start 'yanking.'

You're on the right track, Celette is the only way to go with this repair. Think we have five at last count. Four strictly for 900 series thru current including all fixtures, and one for longer wheel based such as Panamera, etc.. though many of those and the SUV's don't make it through to full repair.

[Karoserist]

I have just read this topic. Very cool . Respect
I now see that I'm not the only one addicted to collecting tools.

Originally Posted by onboost

We have several benches, and fixtures that cover early 911 thru current 991..

I have a request regarding this data sheets on the above picture if it is possible to get good quality colour scans for:551.300, 551.308, 551.309 and 551.PA data sheets).

I just bought a jig set but I'm a little disappointed with the quality of attached data sheets (low quality prints).
Here is a link to my topic: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/1103136-porsche-911-celette-fixture-data-sheets-help.html

I appologize if this is an off-topic.