914/6 custom oil tank? Can i build one?

[farleyd]

Ok, that one will make noise. As we all know, 914/6 conversion are a lot of fun and also a lot of $.

Please note that i am not trying to replicate a 914/6 integrally. I am just trying to put a 6 in a 914, with less costs possible. I am not doing this for resale, so resale value isnt a fact.

I know i can build some parts; engine bulkhead, heat exchangers - will keep you posted, etc.

But as the oil tank and fitting are almost $900 alone, can i build a replica? Copper, aluminum? Is there any pitfall i should avoid - beside not tryni to build one.... ?

And if i start form a 911 oil tank?

Lets talk.

[campbellcj]

I have seen the tanks listed used for 300-400...lines not included though...probably not something you really want to cut corners on!

[rich]

I had considered the 6 cyl. swap before the 928 motor that I'm currently installing. The motors are availible but the cost of all the parts to finish the job discouraged me. I posted a request for someone to loan or rent me their oil tank so I could take a pattern off of it. I was going build a production jig to press them out. Who cares if the thing is stock as long as it functions the same and installs in the same place. I couldn't get anyone to play. The tank is NOT complicated. They use the 911 filler neck and dip stick. The return line drains high in the tank and the oil passes through a screen to help reduce foaming. Really pretty simple to fabricate from sheet aluminum.

[Didier]

Hi Rich.

I'm leaving in France and I'minterested about the engine upgrade of the 914.
Thank's to the german 914 Website, I discovered this Website.

I read that you are adapting a 928 engine( V8 water cooled)into your 914.

I've seen in a french Porsche magazine that SWS (famous Porsche dealer/tuner in Germany) earlier specialised in 914( now 911), has already done this work.
I seems to be a hard work.( not enough place in the engine "room".

Can you tell me more how you will proceed.

I' imterested to adapt a bigger engine on the 914.

(The engines are cheaper in Europe, but the special parts to adapt the engines don't exist and I find them quiet expensive in USA


Thank's for your answer & good luck,

DDS

[michel richard]

Didier,

Pouvez-vous m'envoyer un e-mail directement, svp. Nous avons un petit groupe informel et francophone de 914-istes. merci.

Thanks for the bandwidth, guys.

Michel Richard

[rich]

Didier,
Send me your e-mail address and I'll try to answer your questions at lenth. In the mean time. Check out my web site. The car is a work in progress.(really you guy's...honest)
http://www.d.umn.edu/~jrichar4/alien.htm

Michel Richard, For the benifit of those of us that have trouble with our native lanuage please humor us and tranlate your text. We need sub-titles. (LOL)

BTW,
To get back to the topic on the original post. I think a functional oil tank could could be sold at a retail price of about 225.00. I'm not talking about a restoration part, but a conversion part.
I had an e-mail exchange with a guy that is in the know. I was told that there is alot more talk about conversions than there are actual parts sold.
The answer seems pretty obvious to me. Offer other sources, Lower the prices=sell more parts=more conversions finished.
MHO

[This message has been edited by rich (edited 04-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by rich (edited 04-13-2001).]

[Rob-O]

Well, I have a somewhat battered 914/6 tank, if Rich wants to hook us up with a production jig. It came out of a /6 that had been hit right behind the driver's door. It was banged out and could still be used, but I'd love to get a brand spanking new one, fresh off the press.

I agree, the other parts necessary for the oil tank converion alone aren't cheap (Patrick Motorsports carries some of the lines, by their manufacture). But automobile bliss has always come at a cost.

[michel richard]

Rich,

I did'nt mean to be rude. The text I posted translates into: "Can you send me an e-mail directly, we va a small french-speaking, informal, group of 914-ers. thanks."

Rob, I've been kicking this around with Sabin ("farleyd") and I've told him I might be able to beat a tank out of flat stock if I can rip some of the fittings (threaded parts, etc . . . ) off an old 911 tank.

Perhaps you could post detailed pictures of your tank, from several angles, along with detailed dimensions.

On the other hand, I would be happy to pay for shipping, build a functional tank, and post a detailed article or story on doing it. I could also mail back, if you want your tank back. I'm in Canada.

I've just bought a six, so I'm pretty commited to a conversion.

Thanks.

[Jim Smolka]

I bought an aftermarket tank. It uses NPT 3/4" lines that require adapting to AN lines. Not a big deal.

After reviewing it with my engineering eye, I determined that it is not easy to mfr. The aftermarket one is a combination of 2 cast Alum halves welded together. Also, the fittings are UPT (3/4"). The breather and fill ports have also been added. The hardest thing that I have seen is the oil filter assy. A hole must be drilled into one half. Also the oil filter seating plate must be milled smooth. This whole process of mfr is interesting.

If I was mfr these, I would change a couple of things.

1. The scavage line would be 1" NPT.

2. The hole to the oil fiter would be bigger (however, I am not sure if this is a good idea.

3. All the breather and fill ports would have a flange on them. This would help insure that the hoses stay put.

4. I would install a plate for the oil level gage sending unit, Like the one on the 911 tank. If you wanted a gage for the level, you would simply remove the plate and install the sending unit.

[Joe Bob]

The other alterantive is to mount the oil tank up front in the trunk. I parted out a 914/6 conversion and it used a 911 tank.

The 911 tank is a lot cheaper and more readily available used. They mounted in next to the front mounted oil cooler down where the aftermarket a/c condenser was.

Hope that helps.

[michel richard]

Jim,

Thanks for your thoughts.

1. Why do you suggest the NPT thread, and why 1" ?

2. I figure the oil filter part is probably the easiest. There is an oil filter mounting assembly that is separate from the tank and is attached to the latter with three simple screws. It is only a matter of soldering, or welding, three nuts inside the tank, in the right place and drilling two holes for the oil to go through. The mounting assembly contains a bypass valve, for when the oil is cold.

3. makes sense.

4. makes sense.


Possibilities for fabbing would be (please notice the use of the conditional tense):

A) beat two halves of mild sheet steel, drill and weld (or silver solder or braze) the required fittings, and then braze the two halves together. I might then have the whole tank copper plated at a nearby shop.

Two problems here, 1)steel is a little hard to beat into compound curves, although it can be done quite well, especially if the stock is thinnish 2) The cost of copper plating might make the whole thing more expensive than buying a tank.

B) beat the two halves out of aluminum

Problems: 1) I've never welded or soldered aluminum, although there are people who claim they make fluxes and other material that make soldering aluminum as easy as copper. 2) fittings would be a problem 'cause I don't think it's possible to weld ferrous metals to aluminum.

C) beat the halves out of copper sheet. Copper is real easy to beat into any shape and extremely easy to solder. All soldering would probably need to be silver, on account of the temperature of the oil and the consequences of a failure. This is more expensive than soft solder, and a little harder.

It might be a little heavier. Fittings could be silver soldered. Don't know how thick to make the copper to meake the whole thing strong enough.

I would need dimensions. Might be able to figure these out from measuring the car and looking at a 911 tank.

I'll be in Hershey next week, and will certainly be on the lookout for 911 tanks. If I can find one, not too expensive, and get dimensions, I might give it a crack.

The reason for doing all of this is mostly the challenge, altough I don't mind saving a few bucks.

Michel

[Didier]

Hello everybody.
It seems I've problems to send my private Email adress directly to your own adress.

To make short : sterckxd@free.fr

Bye,

DDS

[Didier]

It's me again
ONE QUESTION MORE:
How much cost the conversion of a flat 6 into a 914/4 (just the price of the parts)

Why am I asking this question?

I've the opportunity to buy a 914/4 for 5000$or a 914/6 with 2.7 engine, big brakes, ... for 12000$ in Germany.

What do you think?

DDS

[Jim Smolka]

To answer questions about my previous post, I recommend that the tank be tapped NPT threads. This way it is easy to go from NPT to AN fittings. I used Aeroquip fittings and SS hose. For the scavage line, the stock 911 scavage line is about 1". My aftermarket tank is tapped to 3/4" Since you want to make sure that the engine is getting oil, and that scavage line is not pressurized, I recommend that the fitting for tank start out as 1". On my setup, I used a 3/4" to AN 16 (1") adapter. Then I ran AN 16 SS hose to the cooler. I would just get a warm and fuzzy feeling know that the tank has a 1" tapped hole for the scavage line.

Hopefully, I will have a jpg of my car as I was going around the Oak Tree @ VIR last weekend I will post it soon.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

A few remarks:

Some copper (maybe all??) work-hardens and gets brittle. This means that if your oil tank is subject to any vibration, it will eventually crack. Not a good thing for your oil tank.

Didier, get the Six. The cheapest that I have ever heard of anyone doing a Six conversion was about $8,000 US, including about $2000 for the car. And that was doing a lot of wheeling and dealing.

The short version is that it is almost always more cost-effective to buy the car that you want, rather than buying a car and then turning it into what you want.

--DD

[DDS]

Didier:
As somone who is making the car I bought into the one I want, I second Dave's post.
Dave

[Rob-O]

Wow, this is interesting. First, I agree with Dave. Buy the 914/6 in one piece. Okay, that's three opinions in favor of the /6. If you go out and buy the /4, don't say we didn't tell you so. Although if you follow through and get the /4 with the mindset of turning it into a /6, I'm sure the folks at Pelican will be happy to help you out with all those little parts for your conversion.

An update on my previous post. Right now my tank resides in Michigan. By early June it will be here with me in Texas. However until then I obviously can't post pictures or get dimensions. But come June, I'll snap as many shots as anybody needs. I also don't have a problem shipping it off to somebody if they want to play around with it and see what they can come up with, granted I get it back.

I don't have the filler assembly anymore (long story) but do have a few of the washers and nuts, along with the oil filter assembly.

How many folks are interested in this? Please drop me a line.

I think the tank could be manufactured, the question is at what cost? The NOS tanks seem to go for $650 or so. The aftermarket pieces for $500 and up. If Rick can manufacture one of these for $225 or so, that's a deal.

[Wayne 962]

I bought my six for $5K including the car! (guy had $12K in receipts). This was in the pre-Pelican days.

Don't bother trying to make your own oil tank. In reality, the amount of work just isn't worth it. And anyone thinking of making aftermarket oil tanks for profit should just talk to me or Rich Johnson. Ask us how many people actually talk about the six conversion versus people who actually do it. (about 2-3% of the people who talk about it actually end up doing it).

It's a very, very, very small market. That's why no one has invested the $$$ to make the steel fender flare tooling!

-Wayne

[michel richard]

About making one's own tank.

The mindset has to be different. I agree that from a purely economic perspective making one's own tank may not make sense.

However, I just like to make things. I spent so much time and effort fixing rust on my 914 that I could have justified buying at least two frames in So Cal. On the other hand, there is absolutely no way that I'm thinking about producing oil tanks for resale.

The time and trouble of fabbing a tank are not issues, for me. I just want to figure out if I can build a tank without investing in huge amounts of tooling (the cost of special taps and dies can add up very quickly), within a reasonnable budget, within my skills, and if I can, perhaps others would be interested in the results.

Michel

[farleyd]

I started the topic. I have to agree with Michel on this. First it is for knowledge, then if we can save some $, then why not? Everyone will agree - ill risk - that paying up to 700US$ (more than 1K in CAN$, but this is another issue....) for an oil tank and fittings that are only different from a 911 one in location and dimensions is ridiculous.

My 914 is Ok but not great. It will be a good driveable conversion. Unless you have a original 914/6, anf that you should keep it stock at any cost i agree, there is no point (for me) to built a 914/6 replica only for the sake of it, youll fool no-one.

My point of vew is:
If i find an OEM oil tank at a good price, ill buy. Otherwise i might build my own (hence the topic) or i might get away with a 911 modified one in the front trunk.

For purists, not worst than a Subaru or V8 in a 914.... right?