How Long Until It Blows? =(

[phoenix_iii]

85.5 944 NA 5spd. Rescued from sitting, and then a quick PO before me.

91k miles when I got it.

Had done
* Timing Belt, Water Pump, trans/diff fluid changes, oil change, oil pressure sender, lower rad hose, repack front bearings, new shift lever and bushing (nice improvement)
Did
* Brakes (all new all around + stainless lines), rear shocks.

Some other stuff that's not relevent.

Bottom line, ever since the fluid change (which the tech said the fluid was pretty decent out of it, not black terrible, no pleathora of metal shavings, etc), I started to get some noise, and now it's to the point where it sounds like ... death.

Going straight/getting up to speed is sometimes silent, no worries. It started off as a throttle on/throttle off problem, could hear/feel a clunk. Then I would get a thunking noise under torque (accelerating only)... which then went to off throttle only, and only with the clutch in.

I just want to know, what testing can I do for you guys, to try and narrow this down. I am also getting a vibration through the shifter (only when in gear with the clutch in) at 4k, which tech says is also the trans, though new bushing muted a lot).

What tests can I do for you guys to get your input. Trans fluid is MT90.

Help! =(


I can re-state as needed, in a hurry at the moment. =(

*edit*

There are sounds now to download, as well as better symptom/aggrivator descriptions

[rmconner80]

Are you on the original clutch?

[ERAU944]

agreed... sounds likely to be the clutch.

have you noticed an increase in drivetrain lash... i.e. jerkiness when going on/off throttle. i drove for about 1k miles on my 'limp home' teeth inside the rubber center of the clutch before i realized the horrible vibration and drivetrain lash were a result of my clutch taking a shi*t.

i thought my ring and pinion were going south, but a quick check of torque shaft play in neutral yielded lots of slop = clutch shot.

[phoenix_iii]

Originally Posted by rmconner80

Are you on the original clutch?

I don't know. But the way it feels, I *want* to say no. Best way to check?

ERAU944. - No noticable increase in drive lash/vibration on and off clutch. Actually, the clutch feels *great*, no slipping, holds and pulls through 5500rpms (usually where I stop), syncros on trans are decent (much better after fluid change), I've been able to throw the car around some corners and enjoy it.

I will be sensitive to bad vibration and drive lash as dead clutch from now on though, thank you. I have no vibration (motor mounts done too) at really anything but 4k, which is just comes through the shifter only, and new bushing really quieted that down a bit..

More questions/posts welcome!!

[ERAU944]

my clutch othewise worked normally for that 1k miles, save for the occasional hard shift (didn't want to go into gear), and i would get vibrations somewhere above 3k - mostly percieved through the shifter. one of my motor mounts was worn out by all the vibration. check the clutch inspection hole for rubber bits... i'm curious to see the results

[phoenix_iii]

Originally Posted by ERAU944

my clutch othewise worked normally for that 1k miles, save for the occasional hard shift (didn't want to go into gear), and i would get vibrations somewhere above 3k - mostly percieved through the shifter. one of my motor mounts was worn out by all the vibration. check the clutch inspection hole for rubber bits... i'm curious to see the results

I will, assuming Haynes has a procedure for inspection.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/clutch-03.htm

10-4. Should be able to look tonight.

Also, my vibration is ONLY at 4k-4100.

Where will I see rubber bits? Should I stick a finger in the inspection hole and feel around? Bad idea?

Also makes sense this could be Torque Tube related? Maybe? Anything to look at/test for that guy?

[rmconner80]

Your clutch surface may be fine. In fact, it's probably got 50K or more miles left on it. It will hold and grip great - after it clunks.

The "bad" part of the clutch isn't the surface. It's the rubber center. They break free and then you get to the metal safety tabs which catch. It's not good to drive it around this way. I had to drive mine a bit like this and you can learn to let the clutch out and operate the throttle in a gentle way that doesn't CLUNK and stress the ring and pinion. But long story short, don't drive it any more than you need to, and get a new Sachs spring centered clutch in it ASAP.

You can also pull the starter and look for chunks or flecks of black rubber.

[phoenix_iii]

My mechanic (Foreign car specialists with a few 911, a 944, and bunch of older benz) said to just drive it and not complain so much (basically). He said its the transmission, it's already damaged, drive it until it needs a new clutch, then take care of it. =\

[Cking1975]

As long as it is not he engine I would not worry too much. Does the car drive smooth ? These transmission are not smooth, they are not quiet and they are well "German" Japanese transmission are very smooth but delicate, the European transmission for the most part are cluncky and strong (I am not including the Panther Tank from WWII in this comment). Make the transmission a winter project, if this is not your daily driver. The way I look at it...my car is not my daily driver, I will do any project on the car, and when I get then I will finish another day, if I get stumped, I will ask for help. I think your mechanic is saying, don't stress out, it is an old car and things will go wrong.

[phoenix_iii]

It's smooth, it just

a) sounds embarassing at times (when at speed it's fine)
b) sounds like it's about to explode

New now = Even when out of gear, when coming down from speed, I get noise, like something that spins after the clutch is disengaged, and then it stops... so if I am going 60mph, makes noise till about 30mph (if coasting from 60) and stops. Kind of weird... =\

[phoenix_iii]

I am going to be using a piece of tape over the clutch view window to see if it catches anything (debris)

I will also try topping off the trans fluid in case there is a leak. Will make sure car is level when topping off. Will try to get a sample of fluid too from drain.

[CJFusco]

I had an early 944 and experienced similar symptoms when my original, rubber-centered clutch was failing. It sounds like the clutch to me. If you don't have any service records of it ever being replaced, I would assume that it's the clutch disk.

[phoenix_iii]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

I had an early 944 and experienced similar symptoms when my original, rubber-centered clutch was failing. It sounds like the clutch to me. If you don't have any service records of it ever being replaced, I would assume that it's the clutch disk.

And what happened? Drove it until you replaced it? It grenaded/stranded you and then replaced it? Did you get vibrations/lash/pedal problems? So far I have none of the latter three.

[CJFusco]

I decided to replace it once the clutch started slipping in-gear; I would be driving and the revs would climb but the car would not accelerate. I would have to re-clutch and put it back in gear. Sometimes it would accelerate, sometimes it wouldn't. That's when I decided to order a new clutch kit and bring the car down to the shop.

[phoenix_iii]

What did it SOUND like though? I'm hearing like metal gnashing and all sorts of horribleness, and even when off the clutch and coasting down (remains like whatever it is spins for a bit until it slows itself down, even though I still may still be going like 30mph or so).

One thing I want to try is braking, it seems to stop when braking, or very very shortly after, maybe due to weight shift. oy.

[S-G-Covin]

Originally Posted by phoenix_iii

What did it SOUND like though? I'm hearing like metal gnashing and all sorts of horribleness, and even when off the clutch and coasting down (remains like whatever it is spins for a bit until it slows itself down, even though I still may still be going like 30mph or so).

One thing I want to try is braking, it seems to stop when braking, or very very shortly after, maybe due to weight shift. oy.

Not to throw stones, but if you want a proper diagnosis from anyone, you'll need to give us some form of audio. You've done well enough to describe it. Frankly, it DOES sound like clutch from your description, but it could still be other things. Shucks, frokm some of what you say it could just as easily be a bad bearing!

Can you upload an audio of this noise you're hearing? A digital recorder is cheap at wally world, and most can plug into a mic jack.

[phoenix_iii]

Originally Posted by S-G-Covin

Not to throw stones, but if you want a proper diagnosis from anyone, you'll need to give us some form of audio. You've done well enough to describe it. Frankly, it DOES sound like clutch from your description, but it could still be other things. Shucks, frokm some of what you say it could just as easily be a bad bearing!

Can you upload an audio of this noise you're hearing? A digital recorder is cheap at wally world, and most can plug into a mic jack.

I have one and I can do that tonight on way to the movies, I'll have a friend in the back with recording... I could do a video so you can see speed, shifting/clutching too.

I'll try to hold back my 'Oh g0d noes' as it makes horrible sounds... if it does, it'll be 'cold' and a short trip, but I have faith.

[phoenix_iii]

http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/001.mp3
http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/002.mp3
http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/003.mp3
http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/010.mp3
http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/011.mp3
http://pho3nixserver.no-ip.org:4444/forumrelated/porsche/horrible/012.mp3

Right Click, Save-As.


Quick update (had assistant): It's on the right side. Turns seem to make it worse (might not be true). Sound regardless of clutch pedal up or down, or in gear. But when in gear and under load, no noise. Sound not all the time either. I edited a few passes because there wasn't anything to hear... but those are fairly rare.

Mechanic did say rear right wheel bearing had some play, but not 'immediately replace it'.

[S-G-Covin]

The thing I don't get is where you say you can hear and feel this (in your OP) while the clutch is engaged. I wouldn't assume a tranny/clutch problem could carry over when the tranny is disengaged...and with the clutch engaged the parts shouldn't be.

That leaves engine, wheels and suspension (I know, theres a lot of stuff in there). You said right side. Check again and let us know; front right side or rear right side. Could be brakes; could be bearings. Could be a belt scrapping(doubtful). Even the rear axle. CV Joint? I dunno; maybe and thats my best guess.

Could be a lot of things, even from the audio...but from your descriptions, I'm hesitant to say its the tranny or anything to do with it. Take that with a grain of salt, however. I've done tranny work on Chevy, Geo and a couple Fords. Never had an issue with a Porsche transmission.

But I don't see how that noise could be clutch.

EDIT: The closest thing I can recollect to that sound was when my El Camino's right front bearing went south. I got a similar scrapping noise and it was hard to pin down from the driver's seat due to-well-that big honking engine. But his wasn't happening at speed so much as in turns.

[phoenix_iii]

My thoughts
* It's not coming from the front. This I know and have had confirmed by person outside of car. It's the rear right.
* The transmission shifts perfectly, the clutch engages and disengaged perfectly
* I get the problem just rolling, so if I get up to speed, put it in neutral and have the clutch pedal up or down, doesn't matter.
* Sound goes away under load
* Turning seems to exacerbate it, but not direction specific.

I really think rear right wheel bearing AND maybe CV at same time? I've put less than 100 miles on it since I started getting noises (my guestimate).

I am going to put it up on stands and just spin the wheel by hand...

Any tests I should perform while on stands?