Timing Map for NA car

[HondaDustR]

Just checked out the MJ website and I'm surprised at how cheaply this could be done. You should definitely do a writeup so no one has to reinvent the wheel. I'll have to get myself one of those sometime.

The MJ does interpolate the map. It says so on the website.

[Dean924s]

Ok I can not leave well enough alown. This is a "better" map. It makes the car go like stink! No hesitaton it just goes!!!! And I am sure there is still more in it (I am tuning going to and from work). However I think I am getting to the point where a dyno may be needed to squeeze out the last bit of HP.

My wife volinteered to work the computer while I drive this weekend. I think an hour of tuning would help alot especially with some one that can compently work a PC. This should be fun!!

Here is the new map. It is Fast924S premium map tweeked a bit.

[Dean924s]

Hay fast924s are you going to the Belt party in ct? We should make it a belt & Map party.

[Schumi]

How hard would it be for you to take the trigger wheel off and put the distributor back on? I'd like to see back to back dyno tests. Maximum power may not be effected much but sounds like there is some definite improvement in the area under the curve.

That is the main advantage of a crank trigger instead of cam that I am seeing- you can just disconnect the old plug and coil wires, hook up the new, turn the unit on, and go. You could swap back and forth quickly...

[KitCarlsonEMS]

Dean,

Sounds like you are having fun with ignition tuning. When you add fuel tuning you will really love it.

[Dean924s]

Schumi,

I bet I could swap it back in 15-20 min if I was taking my time (sipping on a cold one). If I was in pit crew / crew chief mode I bet I could do it in more like 5-7 min. It really is that simple!!

Things I would do to make the swap fast.

Put a switch in line to the stock coil or quick connects.

Have a tray big tray set up with all the tools needed for each part grouped with the part and the needed fasteners.

Have a collection of extra fasteners just in case.


The actual trigger wheel is just one bolt. I welded the trigger wheel / gear to the retainer that holds the gear in place on the cam (the piece that the stock rotor is attached to). I did this for two reasons. The biggest was that it would be a real PITA to try to keep the wheel aligned while tightening up the bolt and since the cam gear retainer is keyed to the cam and the cam gear it can only go on one way. This means that there is no alignment or fiddling with it. Porsche did a precision fitment to this making it a very precise fit. This was a huge plus to this installation. It literally is virtually idiot proof. Once fabricated it is really just a bolt on deal. You can only put it on one way and it will always be in the corect alignment every time.

The other thing that you would not have to deal with is all the wiring. The original installation of this takes some time. In fact if you were to brake down the actual on car work time this is by far the longest part of the job You have to take your time with it and double check it. But in a swap you can just leave it in place. Tag it and bag it if you know what I mean.

I should take some photos of it now that I have all the wiring cleaned up. I am not sure I would call it "factory" but it looks darn good. What I really need to do is clean up the modified cam cover and put a guard / cover over the trigger wheel.

I hope to get to the dyno. My life is getting crazy at the moment. The only time I have been able to "test and tune" has been driving in and out of Boston to the office and home. I data logged my whole drive home tonight. I though this was cool until I realised that I will never get a chance to go through all the data.. . What was I thinking but I now have an hours worth of data logged to play with when I have nothing else to do.

I would really like to do a comparison on the dyno. This would be very interesting. I would probably do a base line "stock pull" and then swap everything over to the EDIS/megajolt system system and spend the rest of the session tuning. I could probably get 6-10 pulls in an hour if we were hustling. We got 10 the last time we were there with the race car. This is a case where a couple of helpers would be a huge benefit.

As for actual HP I am not really sure that I am getting all that much more. I bet at the most 15-20.(You really can not feel anything less than that in the car) What I do think is that the torque curve has been chanced and by eliminating the fall off of timing in the upper rpms that the stock set up has you probably actually are pulling and building HP all the way to red line instead of having that "sweet spot round 5500-5700 in stock form

Just one more thing to add to the list.

We should do a new england 944 dyno day. Having people familiar with the cars making the changes between runs really makes for much more efficient use of dyno time! And it is just a fun time!!

I thought I had posted this but here is a link to a kind of, sort of, build documentary.

http://www.autosportlabs.org/viewtopic.php?t=2026

Believe it or not I stated with the idea that I would build a coil on plug system with an EDIS8 that was cam fired. I still think this is do-able BUT the firmware on the megajolt needs to b modied and I think the EDIS would have a problem with the low rpms (around 400 at idle and only 100 when you were trying to start it. Anyway you can see me babble and laugh at my mistakes and there are a lot of photos of my trials. There were/are several things that I fabricated up and never made it to the car. I have a second complete trigger set up all but completed. I just have to weld up another trigger wheel to a cam fear retainer and purchase about $5. in nuts bolts and washers and spacers.

[fast924S]

Dean yea I think Im gonna try and make it once we get a fixed date for it. SOunds like a good idea to me

[fast924S]

I would love to get some dyno pulls done on my ride as well, We should find a dyno somewhere in the middle of us and pool are money for some pulls

[Schumi]

Dean- I see you are using the a mazda VR sensor. Do you have a part number for that little guy?

I'm thinking about starting on designing a housing/mounting for the cam mount 72-2 wheel and sensor apparatus.

On a separate note we just got some hall effect sensors in for our 2009 season formula car for Honeywell, they are pretty small and very robust looking, roung with a one bolt hole position mount. But I think the megajolt can only use VR sensors (2 wires which output a sinewave) verses the hall effect (3 wires which output a square wave)

[Dean924s]

Schumi

I do not know the Part Number. I gt mine from the junkyard and from ebay. In a pinch I have several (3-4) on the shelf. I looked up the part on several parts store sites and did not find them. They are actually sold as pairs wired together back to the wiring harness. I also suspect that you may have to purchase the entire eccentric shaft position unit for mazda.

I was looking at the cam position sensors from the 94-98 ford 3.8 V6. I assume that it is a VR sensor but I have not looked at it closely. There are several in the junkyard locally and I should pull one the next time i am there to play with and see.

One of my next improvements / better design will be to use a smaller trigger wheel. Tested and proven installation have used 30 mm 72-2 wheels. I would then fabricate it so it would mount the same way that the stock rotor mounts (suing the same hardware) I would then fabricate a cover that incorporated the VR sensor that used the stock distributor cap mounting. This would be a neat clean install that would then be easy reversible. I also think that it would be much more appealing to 944 owners if installing the trigger and sensor was not more difficult than installing a new cap and rotor.

I am going to put this into Autocad and see what I come up with, Now that I know the principal works I am going to re design and toss a little more $$$ at it. I have access to a machine shop. That has a completely computer controlled 5 axis mill. So once I have it in cad they just make it. We can then see how it works. First I need to find a gear that fits the needs. We could make one but of the shelf is so much better.

[Dean924s]

Ok Now that is works. I am now in the process of making cad drawings for the trigger wheel mounting and the housing for the trigger wheel / mounting for the VR sensor. I have made arrangements for getting them machined up from my AutoCad/DXF drawings.

This will make my install look professional not the hack and whack job it resembles at the moment.

Once I get the drawings done I will get prototypes made up for a test install. After that as long as long as there are no significant changes I can see about getting more made up once I prove that they are viable. This would make the install for others MUCH simpler. What took me weeks to engineer and figure out will be installed 5 minutes. It would make the conversion to Megajolt, Megasquirt and of course Microsquirt much easier. IT could also be used with the other more expensive units as well.

I know Jason here at Pelican has the Microsquirt virtually figured out with the exception of the speed and reference sensors. I am hoping that this will complete the puzzle. Making stand alone, completely programmable engine management in the 944/951's a rather simple install and more importantly it would be afordable.

I am really impressed with the maxtune set up that Fast924s has!!! That looks like a terrific system for the $$$

Anyway, Am I nuts? What do all of you think? At very least it would make the install of the Megajolt on these cars simple.

[Dean924s]

I think I made a mistake when interpolating the maps from Fast924s. I reversed the load values so that the timing values in the maps I made are inserted in the vertical axis, If I read the Maxtune software correctly the car at idle will be at the lower left corner of the map. On the Megajolt it is the upper left. To further complicate things the X and Y ax data is also reversed (load and RPM are swapped)

The funny thing is that my last map worked REALLY well!!! I am going to revers the vertical axis on the map, load it up, and see what happens. I actually think it will de-tune it on the upper end and make the bottom end more responsive. I may make.. . . OK I will make.. .. a third map combining the two. I really like the current map I am using I have 50 deg of advance at the upper limits but the bottom end is still a little soggy. By taking the corrected bottom end (from the map that Fast294s posted and using that for the bottom and keeping the upper end I have (and really like) I should in theory get the best of both worlds!!

This is why being able to mess with this stuff is so much fun. in a stock car you have what you have and live with it!

[fast924S]

I've decided that I hate winter

[Dean924s]

Originally Posted by fast924S

I've decided that I hate winter

That is an understatement. It was just nasty today. Snow on and off all day.

I got a chance to take my car out yesterday evening and push it out with the corrected map (your map) and it is by far the best so far.

Here it is.



I am having a little hesitation around 3-4K at part throttle. I am thinking of taking some of the 48's out and making them 46 and 47's smoothing out the map a little.

[Dean924s]

And for those that are into data logging. I clipped a section from the data I acquired on my drive home the other day and graphed it.

The amount of data this thing gives you when you log is great. I had something like 10 columns of different things in the cts file.

Run up through the first four gears up to 5100 or so.



If anyone here is good at analysing the raw numbers and wants to have a look let me know I will post that up or can email the file.

[fast924S]

Data Logging looks good man, Im a bit confused, SO did you have the maps 180 degrees the other way, I didnt notice when I looked at them before. What makes it really hard is your maps go to 100% load The ones I have Dont they stop at 54%, Then I have a different WOT map . SO does that mean after 50% my car just goes to WOT maps? HMMM I never thought about this before, odd. I did notice the other day that right about 3-4k rpms I have a VERY VERY faint hessitation that only last for like 100rpm. Based on these maps it looks like we could use some extra timing advance in the upper RPM's. How does your unit get a LOAD reading?? I thought load was based on TPS and RPM, My 924S doesnt have a full 5v TPS sensor just a on- off tps sensor.

[Dean924s]

Fast924s. You have PM Call me

[HondaDustR]

Originally Posted by fast924S

How does your unit get a LOAD reading??

Doesn't it have a MAP sensor?

[Dean924s]

I run a MAP system. The load question is very simple to answer. Think of it this way. With your throttle at 50 percent open or 90 percent open how much change in vacuum (load) will there really be? The answer is virtually non. For the same reason your maps only go to %54 on the TPS because anything after this is will look at as WOT. My MAP system is the same as that anything after about 50 percent throttle the amount of vacuum change is negligible so in effect it goes to 0 vacuum or 100% load on my scale after about 50 percent throtal.

How I messed the maps up is that when my car is at idle it is at the upper left corner of my map. For you it is in the lower left combine this with the reversal of the scales (RPM versus load) and I screwed it up. What I did was to invert the columns vertically

You can compare these to as they are the "same map" just that the second one is the correct version the first one is the one I made that I interpolated incorrectly.

THe map I inverted the #'s in the vertical axis (runs ok actually)


Correct map (runs extremely well with the little hesitation I noted previously)

[fast924S]

Hey Dean, Sorry I havent had a chance to call you, Been busy and working my ballz off. ANyway I totally forgot your running MAP, That answeres my question. I may drop you a call this weekend, If not I will see you at the Belt party and you can take my 924S for a spin