Smoking and powerless

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Ok, I'm literally trembling right now because I kind of fear the worst has happened to my engine.

Just recently I had a starting problem.
I drove the car to work Tuesday (9/28/10) and by my lunch time, about 11am, I was going to get her inspected. Well I had to cancel that because she wouldn't start. Just crank and crank and crank but not even so much as a sputter.
At first I thought it was my fuel pump that went dead but that thing is silent anyway and can't hear it when you turn the key on (that horrendous bong noise doesn't help ither). Well I had to leave it there for the night and hope for better results the next day.

Wednesday, I get to the car and 5pm comes around, home time! I hit the key and a few cranks, she came to life, but not how I'd want her to... smoke went everywhere and there was some god-awful metallic 'clanking' noise occasionally when I'd try to throttle her up to keep her going. I've been terrified that somehow something inside the engine was slapping something and with time, would just sever whatever it was or simply blow-up.
Anyway, the smoking is thick and hard to pin what scent it is but it struggles to start from a cold sit and stay on. Even when I throttle her, it wants to bog down and die unless I flutter it like mad while cranking.

I may just have to get a video to help get the message through, because I'm literally too panicked right now to think straight and making sure I have all details down. Plus I think a video will do abit more justice than me aimlessly ranting on.

Just today, I was checking my spark plugs since I got the stupid idea that possibly my rings quit on me, thinking that all the 'ninja smoke' she throws out is oil. well I found out it isn't but my plugs are charred, letting me know she was rich and possibly burning oil at some point.
So I put all those back and start her up again. The engine had some time to sit and cool since the trip home and again, cool start, it struggled to stay up and going, leaving me to flutter the throttle like mad again. Once finally started, I'd let it idle and level out; it did great and was almost completely stable like before. But the moment I try to rev it a hair, it wanted to die. I then hear that skin crawling metallic clanking again and the engine bogs then dies.

I think my hypothesis on this issue could be my AFM??? Often times I can disconnect that thing while the engine is idling and it won't have too big of an affect on the idling performance. But, the moment you throttle it = dead and this is basically/exactly what is going on here. However... could the AFM also make the car smoke like some ninja playing a vanishing act? To me it doesn't seem likely but I don't know, I haven't had the chance to dissect a 944/968 engine yet to know what makes them tick.

I'm just really freaked out and want some clear drawn out answers/remedies for this issue.

PS: As of now, the car will start and idle now but will sputter and die when I throttle it. Still there is the occasional 'clank' noise and huge suffocating smoking from the tail

Born2bwild1191 · 09-30-2010, 06:16 PM

How are your coolant and oil levels? Is the smoke the typical sweet smelling white smoke? Idk what the clanking noise is but often times a ridiculous amount of smoke could mean a headgasket? You dont happen to have a nifty little camera you shove down the spark plug hole do you?

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born2bwild1191

How are your coolant and oil levels? Is the smoke the typical sweet smelling white smoke? Idk what the clanking noise is but often times a ridiculous amount of smoke could mean a headgasket? You dont happen to have a nifty little camera you shove down the spark plug hole do you?

The smoke isn't a sweet scent so it's not coolant it's burning. Plus I did change my coolant about... hmm, like 3wks ago.. or 2. And was faced with the problem of my heat not working due to those evil air pockets.

As for the headgasket, my friend thinks it could be the same thing and/or even my valve seals.

Ugh... I think I'm going to have a few restless nights from this point on

Born2bwild1191 · 09-30-2010, 07:23 PM

Hey it always sucks when stuff like this happens, but everything always seems worse than it is

If worse comes to worse, a few long days under the hood and a few hundred bucks will have you back on the road...Good luck, hope you figure it out.

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

This may be a dumb question but...

Do 1984 models have a relay for the AFM or just a fuse?

I tried starting the car this morning and it fired up immediately but the moment I tried to throttle it just a bit, it died and kept doing it.

I'm now almost certain it's the AFM... I think

Born2bwild1191 · 10-01-2010, 06:16 AM

My car did something sort of similar to that in that it started when it wanted and wouldnt take gas. No smoke or noise though. Mine was my fuel pressure regulator, if you unplug an injector and start it and it fires up and stays running, theres a good possibility that's what it is. It could be a combination of little problems...Did you try cleaning the actual connector that hooks onto the AFM? I've heard if it's dirty or corroded it can send false signals and really mess with your AFR.

Slam · 10-01-2010, 12:17 PM

Hmmm... "Clank" is a distressing noise. Not a "ping"? Just out of curiosity, pull the vac lines off your regulator and damper and check there for fuel. If the vac lines have fuel in them then the diaphragm inside in the reg or damper has let go. This'd flood things on cold start.

You could have a monster-sized vac leak, too, but the word 'clank' has me worried for you.

CPR · 10-01-2010, 04:10 PM

I am not so sure you have a catastrophic failure. The banging/clanging noise could be just from the car running WAY off.....

Have you checked the obvious culprits first?
~oil level & integrity
~do you have good gas? (hi-octane/fresh)
~speed and reference sensors in place/in tact?
~proper sensor grounding (all)?
~correct fuel flow/pressure?

AKCJ · 10-01-2010, 05:39 PM

Seems like now would be a good time to check your belts. It's possible (not likely but possible) that it has just jumped a tooth or two. If the timing belt jumps the engine would run but just run bad.

I don't think this is the problem but it needs to be checked. Timing belt, balance belt, tensioner, all rollers.

Also, hows the distributer cap and rotor?

I don't think the above items explain the smoke but still, it's worth checking.

Do a compression check to see about valves?

I'm hoping you don't have a major engine failure.

Good Luck.

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

This is when it will idle and let me throttle it. However it smokes like so.

YouTube - Throwing smoke

As soon as I can, I have the other video up when it dies upon trying to throttle it.

Today it was doing just that with me. I could start it but it wouldn't stay on for more than 2sec really before dieing again. I got aggravated and just came inside to take a breather from it all.

I'm hoping it's just a relay...
Speaking of which, if the DME/Pump relay really is bad, would the engine still be able to start or would it just crank itself silly?

KEV951 · KEV951's Garage

put in some new cheap spark plugs, . There could be debris stuck on your reference sensors which is coming in contact to the starter gear on the flywheel, causing noise when you rev . veryify if it spark , fuel , or compression, otherwise you will get nowhere fast. you checked the plugs, said they look charred , was there any light brown crud that looked like carbon? (thats actually oil deposits) plugs are cheap, so atleast test with known good plugs,
$1.99 each and thats what smart racers use anyways, known good and available everywhere reliability, no need for silver or platinum or iridium, stick with ngk copper

what color is the smoke? just white? black? or blue? white is coolant, black is unburned fuel , and blue is oil

I had a problem about 12 years ago where i drove my car up on a drive up rack, scraped a little, thought nothing of it, changed my oil. tried to start , no start? after 15 mins of waiting and tryin to start, finally started, misfired like crazy and blue smoke everywhere? I ended up pinching the send and return hard lines under the car from bottoming out on the rack, i verified this by first checking for spark, then , compression, (both normal) and finally fuel... my pressure was pegged and my fuel volume was almost zero . cut the pinched tubes and ran steel braided line from under the car where the lines pinched to the rail.

that was that,

again, verify the problem first, what is causing it? a lack of fuel? no compression? mechanical breakdown? spark timing problem? Cam timing problem? (compression) This must be done first , there is no miracle answer we can type here. Murphy's law. good luck!

KEV951 · KEV951's Garage

dude, your regulator is pissing fuel, or your damper, and the smoke looks black as per your video . change the part that is pissing the fuel when you take the vacuume line off.

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by KEV951

put in some new cheap spark plugs, . There could be debris stuck on your reference sensors which is coming in contact to the starter gear on the flywheel, causing noise when you rev . veryify if it spark , fuel , or compression, otherwise you will get nowhere fast. you checked the plugs, said they look charred , was there any light brown crud that looked like carbon? (thats actually oil deposits) plugs are cheap, so atleast test with known good plugs,
$1.99 each and thats what smart racers use anyways, known good and available everywhere reliability, no need for silver or platinum or iridium, stick with ngk copper

what color is the smoke? just white? black? or blue? white is coolant, black is unburned fuel , and blue is oil

I had a problem about 12 years ago where i drove my car up on a drive up rack, scraped a little, thought nothing of it, changed my oil. tried to start , no start? after 15 mins of waiting and tryin to start, finally started, misfired like crazy and blue smoke everywhere? I ended up pinching the send and return hard lines under the car from bottoming out on the rack, i verified this by first checking for spark, then , compression, (both normal) and finally fuel... my pressure was pegged and my fuel volume was almost zero . cut the pinched tubes and ran steel braided line from under the car where the lines pinched to the rail.

that was that,

again, verify the problem first, what is causing it? a lack of fuel? no compression? mechanical breakdown? spark timing problem? Cam timing problem? (compression) This must be done first , there is no miracle answer we can type here. Murphy's law. good luck!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KEV951

dude, your regulator is pissing fuel, or your damper, and the smoke looks black as per your video . change the part that is pissing the fuel when you take the vacuume line off.

I think I may have figured out some of the problem. I took my plugs out and sure enough, they were covered in fuel. I'm going to get a compression tester as soon as possible to test compression and make sure for a fact it isn't oil (bad rings and whatnot).

I dried them off and wiped away all the deposits then put them back in. The car struggled still, to start but it did kick over and idled longer than 2 seconds this time lol but died when I tried to throttle it. Of course all that smoke was back there still.

As for this mass of fuel dump, I'm starting to think I f*cked up big time when half-assing the fuel system. And what I mean is I tried to make it priority to buy all my fuel parts then change them ALL at once for even wear-n-tear purposes. Well I got all and changed all but the filter, pump (was new when I got the car back in 2007), and FPD (Fuel Pressure Damper). I'm starting to think that with the new FPR on the system, the vac pressure kicked up a notch and stressed my FPD till the point the diaphragm inside it gave up, hence the spewing fuel.

But once I change that and the engine is still being flooded what other things could be causing that? My injectors are rebuilt so those (hopefully) shouldn't be the problem.

KEV951 · KEV951's Garage

the only thing that can cause that much flooding is too much fuel pressure or too much demand for fuel, so you could have a restriction on the return side, or your afm and o2 sensor are stuck lean and demanding fuel, but start with the obvious, change the fpd or fpr, whichever is wet, and check again. if there is no oil on the plugs, your rings are fine, and smoke would be blue tinted not black. maybe you hooked something up backwards? remember the regulator is on the return side, larger diameter 10 mm tubing and the damper is on the feed side smaller 8mm tubing. I would also drian the oil , if its totally flooding because of way to much fuel and mixing with oil, kiss your cylinder walls goodbye. check the oil level to see if it is higher than normal. if it is , the its overfilled because its mixed with gas now!!!

HondaDustR · 07:49 AM

The part that is leaking fuel definitely needs to be replaced. According to clarks garage, that's the damper. All that fuel leaking is going into the intake and richenning the mixture. At least fix the vac line that's supposed to be attatched to the other part that should be the regulator, which may also need to be replaced if the fuel pressure is wrong. I believe low vac at that line (as if you stomped on the throttle) raises the fuel pressure, which would definitely richen the mixture if there's no vac at the regulator diaphragm. You probably should borrow/buy a fuel pressure tester to find out exactly what's going on and to ensure that the needed repairs completely fix the problem. The fact that it runs like it does with the AFM unplugged also points to it running slobbering rich. It should practically die if that is unplugged. Check your vac lines, as more of those little rubber fittings may be deteriorated causing vacuum leaks.
Fuel Pressure Regulator - General Information and Replacement Otherwise, the motor sounds great from what I can hear in the vid. The fuel injectors do tick pretty loudly, so that is no cause for concern. If it still runs badly once the fuel system is fixed and running correct pressure, the AFM could be the cause as well as maybe the DME coolant temp sensor, but you won't be able to tell with the fuel system/vac lines in that condition.

Clark's Garage Home Page , "garage shop manual" on left navigation bar has lots of info that will help.

Take care of those things and let us know how it goes.

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by KEV951

the only thing that can cause that much flooding is too much fuel pressure or too much demand for fuel, so you could have a restriction on the return side, or your afm and o2 sensor are stuck lean and demanding fuel, but start with the obvious, change the fpd or fpr, whichever is wet, and check again. if there is no oil on the plugs, your rings are fine, and smoke would be blue tinted not black. maybe you hooked something up backwards? remember the regulator is on the return side, larger diameter 10 mm tubing and the damper is on the feed side smaller 8mm tubing. I would also drian the oil , if its totally flooding because of way to much fuel and mixing with oil, kiss your cylinder walls goodbye. check the oil level to see if it is higher than normal. if it is , the its overfilled because its mixed with gas now!!!

I definantly plan to change the oil soon. Honestly, I do so about every month and 1/2 just becuase I'm trying to flush out the system nice and good. Also, I'm paranoid of this car sitting around for long times like it has been doing the past few years whenever something goes wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaDustR

The part that is leaking fuel definitely needs to be replaced. According to clarks garage, that's the damper. All that fuel leaking is going into the intake and richenning the mixture. At least fix the vac line that's supposed to be attatched to the other part that should be the regulator, which may also need to be replaced if the fuel pressure is wrong. I believe low vac at that line (as if you stomped on the throttle) raises the fuel pressure, which would definitely richen the mixture if there's no vac at the regulator diaphragm. You probably should borrow/buy a fuel pressure tester to find out exactly what's going on and to ensure that the needed repairs completely fix the problem. The fact that it runs like it does with the AFM unplugged also points to it running slobbering rich. It should practically die if that is unplugged. Check your vac lines, as more of those little rubber fittings may be deteriorated causing vacuum leaks.
Fuel Pressure Regulator - General Information and Replacement Otherwise, the motor sounds great from what I can hear in the vid. The fuel injectors do tick pretty loudly, so that is no cause for concern. If it still runs badly once the fuel system is fixed and running correct pressure, the AFM could be the cause as well as maybe the DME coolant temp sensor, but you won't be able to tell with the fuel system/vac lines in that condition.

Clark's Garage Home Page , "garage shop manual" on left navigation bar has lots of info that will help.

Take care of those things and let us know how it goes.

So once I change the pissy FPD :P if that doesn't stop the problem, what else could it possibly be, ye think?
I've got my fingers crossed and prayers pronounced that it simply is the FPD causing this mess. Like, That day I drove it, it was completely fine, Started right up with no problem but just a few hours of sitting and not smoke everywhere and hard to start and keep on from a cold start. Up until this day which it will only stay on for 2 sec then die again. I tried unplugging the FPD and FPR then cranking the engine, it will turn over but still somehow (I'm assuming) floods out and dies.

Ugh, it's early, and my human DME (brian) isn't functioning well :P lol

HondaDustR · 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ez-Bone

So once I change the pissy FPD :P if that doesn't stop the problem, what else could it possibly be, ye think?
I've got my fingers crossed and prayers pronounced that it simply is the FPD causing this mess. Like, That day I drove it, it was completely fine, Started right up with no problem but just a few hours of sitting and not smoke everywhere and hard to start and keep on from a cold start. Up until this day which it will only stay on for 2 sec then die again. I tried unplugging the FPD and FPR then cranking the engine, it will turn over but still somehow (I'm assuming) floods out and dies.

Ugh, it's early, and my human DME (brian) isn't functioning well :P lol

Well, I'd say take a couple things at a time. Replace the damper for sure. Fix the vacuum line to the regulator. Check that all the vacuum lines and connectors are intact to ensure the regulator does in fact receive correct vacuum. Check fuel pressure to make sure it is right, ruling it out as a very major cause of the symptoms you are experiencing. If there are still problems, they will probably not be exactly the same, making further troubleshooting much more productive.

Running rich doesn't have as many causes I think. The only other things I can think of off the top of my head is a very bad O2 sensor, which can be unplugged to confirm. The DME will run just fine without it. It could also be a failed coolant temp sensor, intake air temp sensor, or failed wiring pertaining to either. It could also be leaking or stuck open fuel injectors. You can pull the fuel rail leaving the injectors still attached, held over a catch pan, and crank the engine to look for a fine, even, pulsing spray pattern (with the ignition coil primary (supply) disconnected first). When you stop cranking, look for fuel pressure bleeding off by leaking out the injector tips. The rail should hold pressure after the engine stops. Besides fuel pressure, most anything else wrong would lean it out.

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaDustR

Well, I'd say take a couple things at a time. Replace the damper for sure. Fix the vacuum line to the regulator. Check that all the vacuum lines and connectors are intact to ensure the regulator does in fact receive correct vacuum. Check fuel pressure to make sure it is right, ruling it out as a very major cause of the symptoms you are experiencing. If there are still problems, they will probably not be exactly the same, making further troubleshooting much more productive.

Running rich doesn't have as many causes I think. The only other things I can think of off the top of my head is a very bad O2 sensor, which can be unplugged to confirm. The DME will run just fine without it. It could also be a failed coolant temp sensor, intake air temp sensor, or failed wiring pertaining to either. It could also be leaking or stuck open fuel injectors. You can pull the fuel rail leaving the injectors still attached, held over a catch pan, and crank the engine to look for a fine, even, pulsing spray pattern (with the ignition coil primary (supply) disconnected first). When you stop cranking, look for fuel pressure bleeding off by leaking out the injector tips. The rail should hold pressure after the engine stops. Besides fuel pressure, most anything else wrong would lean it out.

Ok! Finally got my new FPD... pricy S.o.B they are, 95$ for this thing, gosh!
Anyway, I put it on annnnnnd

YouTube - Stalling

Well, the smoking stopped thankfully but it still stalls D: I recall you saying something about coolant temp sensor. If that indeed has gone bad, how would that affect my mixture performance? And is there a way to test the temp sensor to ensure it is bad?
As for injectors, I bought re-manufactured ones recently so I'm HOPING it isn't them otherwise that guy will be hearing back from me and experiencing my irritable side lol

The other half of the video
YouTube - Stalling pt.2
I had the o2 sensor out the entire time I was trying to test as you could probably hear. I've done the 'ear to afm' test and it doesn't sound like its scrapping so I'm assuming my afm is indeed good. What about my TPS? If that were bad, would that cause it to stall too if I try to give it a tap?

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

Video is taking longer than expected to upload... so yea, basically this is just a 'bump' as they call it :P

Ez-Bone · Ez-Bone's Garage

YouTube - More testing

Just done today.
This is puzzling, I got my new FPD which stopped my smoking it seems, but it still starts then dies right after.