Alternative Engines for the 944 (other than a Chevy V8)

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by flash968

i fully realize that there are people who aren't going to spend what is needed to do the job right. it's that way with everything. that's exactly why i don't think it's a good idea to do it at all. advising somebody otherwise is irresponsible, bordering on actionable.

dj makes a good point. while you are responsible for your own actions, and can do whatever you want to your own car, it is not limited to you. if you are in an accident, and you did not do the things to the car that were needed for the new power, you could easily be held liable, and possibly criminally negligent. if you sell the car, and the buyer thinks it was safe, because of something you said, you would be liable. there is no waiver of rights or responsibilities that will get you out of that.

as for the rest, there are no attacks. if somebody takes something personally, that is their problem. i am dealing with that which is put before me.

people fall into 3 categories when it comes to auto repair. those who leave things stock, and have somebody else do everything. then there are those who DIY things and cheap out at every turn. then there are those who do things right, and know that things cost money to do it that way.

unfortunately, there are way too many people who own these cars and are in category 2. that will be the downfall of the car. attrition rates have risen dramatically over the last 10 years as a direct result of not taking care of things correctly, or modifying the car in such a manner that the car is no longer safe or reliable, and consequently wrecking it. this is precisely why i rail against those who would see the car end up at the wrecker by being irresponsible or unwise.

in the end, you get what you pay for.

did i spend too much? i think that depends on how you look at it. i would have bought a new ferrari if i thought it could do what this car does. i now have a car that has everything i want in it, and outperforms almost anything on the road. would somebody else have done it? not likely. however, i wanted something specific, and wanted to see if i could do it. a lot of the money spent was in development. i could probably reproduce the car for about $60k, including a similar purchase. given what the car can do, that is dirt cheap.

as a direct result of those development efforts, there are hundreds of others who have benefitted from it, by now having the parts, which i initially developed for my own car, on their car, thereby improving their experience with their car. that has been very gratifying to me, and i would have spent more, if i thought it would have widened that circle even farther. so, it's all relative.

You're feeling yourself way too much in here. Get a room.

[flash968]

get some facts and data. maybe even try building a car. then come back. until then, you are misinforming others, and leading then down a very treacherous path.

i've been doing this for over 30 years. i've seen hacks come, and i've seen them go. lots of b.s. along the way. no worries. it all shakes out in the end.

perhaps you should read your own signature. you should at least fix the error.

[tedg04]

I'm with you lap - the 944 platform starts with better underpinnings than most of the cars these LS's come from. (ex. Pontiac GTO with LS2 - same size front brakes, smaller rear, 400 hp, and 1000lbs heavier than a 951)

It's still a Porsche, and nothing is 'cheap'. The idea that $10k is cheap just seems foreign.

To the OP - what about the 2.5l VW I-5? I thought I saw something about it - the TTRS sure makes power with it. Or Audi 2.7t? The reason I think these swap thread always come back to LS's is because they meet all the criteria: cheap enough, powerful enough, lower maintenance, and small enough. If a swap for a 400hp v8 is going to cost the same (or close to it) of a 400hp V6t - I'll take the simpler [read: lower maintenance] motor.

[kens_74_911s]

time to un subscribe its gettting a bit out of hand, While I 'm still here throw one more bone.

[Lapkritis]

The VW 2.5 5cyl on the mk5 models has proven a stout platform for performance. There are turbo bits out there to bring their power up. I haven't heard of a 944 swap using one yet but I have seen them shoved into older Audi's already.

I would caution against any of the vw/audi/Porsche with FSI tech as they're from the same age range. These cars/engines are everywhere and have good performance numbers on paper. The intake ports carbon up due to no fuel injector to clean them. The result is a manual port service requirement that is a pain in the butt. Many who have used these engines (up to the 3.6L FSI VR6 and beyond) simply plug the fuel injector port to the combustion chamber and revert to port injection which solves the carbon issue and simplifies the installation.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

more torque means more brakes needed. period.

flash968 saying something ridiculous again?

pffft


as long as you can lock up the brakes, the problem isn't the brakes ... its the tires. and if you have good tires, then then there isn't anything bigger brakes can do to help. bigger brakes on the street is pretty silly in general, again, as long as you can lock up the fronts, there isn't anything for day to day use that you can improve on them with.

what bigger brakes do, is prevent fade/overheat. this comes into play when tracking the car, and almost never would come into play for street driving.

and if your going to say you need bigger brakes because the car weighs more, most engine swaps the engine is lighter then our stock engine.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

i spent at least $25k on my suspension setup, and the car

if you actually spent 25k on your suspension, then you are a fool.

[arominus]

Ohlins and such are nice, but you could do the coil over koni mod on a late car with bigger springs and T-bars out back and be fine. The s2/turbo/968 would be ok with their existing brakes if your not going crazy with the LSx. Its the guys gunning for 400 to 500hp that need a lot more money in the car on suspension and brakes IMO.

If your starting with an NA than you need to spend money on better brakes, even if doing a 968 swap.

[flash968]

lol - that's like saying that if you spent $200k buying a ferrari that you are a fool. but that's what it takes. it's the same as saying that if you spend a million dollars on a track house that you're a fool, but that's what it takes here.

to get the 968 to do what i wanted, and be what i wanted, i had to spend the money i did. i knew how hard i was going to be driving the car, and how much power i was going to have., which meant that the speeds would be higher. that meant a more reactive suspension. i also know that i wanted a stock feel in ride quality, and not something bouncy, jarring or rough riding. that means hydraulic dual adjustable struts and shocks, much larger sway bars than anything out on the market, bracing of the suspension, new bushings everywhere, very lightweight custom made wheels, and super sticky tires. many parts had to be designed and made in order to get it right. then everything had to be adjusted and set, tested, readjusted and reset, again and again until it was right, adapting for each change along eh way. it's really pretty simple. as a result though, the suspension is so far beyond the koni yellow stuff that it's not even in the same league. it all adds up, but it's what i wanted. for me, it was completely logical. it was more than i thought it would be, as i had only budgeted $75k for the project, but i also made a lot of other decisions along the way that added to the price tag. i understand that somebody who spends $1500 on a car would think it was nuts. when i was a broke college kid, i thought the same thing. in terms of the people i hang out with though, who spend $100k buying a car without blinking, it is no big deal. in that world, one would never consider buying any car that cost less than $75k, no matter what it was. quality is everything, cost is nothing. you get what you pay for.

[arominus]

Originally Posted by flash968

lol - that's like saying that if you spent $200k buying a ferrari that you are a fool. but that's what it takes. it's the same as saying that if you spend a million dollars on a track house that you're a fool, but that's what it takes here.

to get the 968 to do what i wanted, and be what i wanted, i had to spend the money i did. i knew how hard i was going to be driving the car, and how much power i was going to have., which meant that the speeds would be higher. that meant a more reactive suspension. i also know that i wanted a stock feel in ride quality, and not something bouncy, jarring or rough riding. that means hydraulic dual adjustable struts and shocks, much larger sway bars than anything out on the market, bracing of the suspension, new bushings everywhere, very lightweight custom made wheels, and super sticky tires. many parts had to be designed and made in order to get it right. then everything had to be adjusted and set, tested, readjusted and reset, again and again until it was right, adapting for each change along eh way. it's really pretty simple. as a result though, the suspension is so far beyond the koni yellow stuff that it's not even in the same league. it all adds up, but it's what i wanted. for me, it was completely logical. it was more than i thought it would be, as i had only budgeted $75k for the project, but i also made a lot of other decisions along the way that added to the price tag. i understand that somebody who spends $1500 on a car would think it was nuts. when i was a broke college kid, i thought the same thing. in terms of the people i hang out with though, who spend $100k buying a car without blinking, it is no big deal. in that world, one would never consider buying any car that cost less than $75k, no matter what it was. quality is everything, cost is nothing. you get what you pay for.

Damn son, that's awesome. Your quite right, its in another league over the yellows at that point, that said you can still accomplish a lot with yellows, light rims and an LSD it wont be as nice, but I do feel it would allow most to get what they wanted out of the car.

[Lapkritis]

How any of this self-promotion for a car that isn't swapped, and that he continues to pollute the thread with, has anything to do with alternative engines other than a V8 is beyond me. Mods: Can we please block him from the thread at least?

[arominus]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

How any of this self-promotion for a car that isn't swapped, and that he continues to pollute the thread with, has anything to do with alternative engines other than a V8 is beyond me. Mods: Can we please block him from the thread at least?

Lets self mod instead and get back on track, this is just an escalation :\

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

lol - that's like saying that if you spent $200k buying a ferrari that you are a fool. but that's what it takes. it's the same as saying that if you spend a million dollars on a track house that you're a fool, but that's what it takes here.

to get the 968 to do what i wanted, and be what i wanted, i had to spend the money i did. i knew how hard i was going to be driving the car, and how much power i was going to have., which meant that the speeds would be higher. that meant a more reactive suspension. i also know that i wanted a stock feel in ride quality, and not something bouncy, jarring or rough riding. that means hydraulic dual adjustable struts and shocks, much larger sway bars than anything out on the market, bracing of the suspension, new bushings everywhere, very lightweight custom made wheels, and super sticky tires. many parts had to be designed and made in order to get it right. then everything had to be adjusted and set, tested, readjusted and reset, again and again until it was right, adapting for each change along eh way. it's really pretty simple. as a result though, the suspension is so far beyond the koni yellow stuff that it's not even in the same league. it all adds up, but it's what i wanted. for me, it was completely logical. it was more than i thought it would be, as i had only budgeted $75k for the project, but i also made a lot of other decisions along the way that added to the price tag. i understand that somebody who spends $1500 on a car would think it was nuts. when i was a broke college kid, i thought the same thing. in terms of the people i hang out with though, who spend $100k buying a car without blinking, it is no big deal. in that world, one would never consider buying any car that cost less than $75k, no matter what it was. quality is everything, cost is nothing. you get what you pay for.

total price for what you wanted from your suspension: 10 grand

tops

dumping that kind of money into a 968 was a waste in general though ... just buy a better car.

[flash968]

the tires and wheels alone were almost $10k, so your numbers are way short.

i could not find a better car. that's the whole problem. i looked at everything up to and including a 360. this is better. try to name another convertible, 2 seat, front engine, rear drive, manual trans car, with a max of 10lb/hp, ac, power steering, power windows, heated seats, and the ability to carry 2 sets of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife. even my SL550 can't do that. if i could have found it, i would have bought it. i couldn't. so, i built it.

as for having anything to do with alternative engines, my entire point is that no matter what you do, if you are adding a bunch more torque, you need to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

the tires and wheels alone were almost $10k, so your numbers are way short.

i could not find a better car. that's the whole problem. i looked at everything up to and including a 360. this is better. try to name another convertible, 2 seat, front engine, rear drive, manual trans car, with a max of 10lb/hp, ac, power steering, power windows, heated seats, and the ability to carry 2 sets of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife. even my SL550 can't do that. if i could have found it, i would have bought it. i couldn't. so, i built it.

as for having anything to do with alternative engines, my entire point is that no matter what you do, if you are adding a bunch more torque, you need to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it.

lol on 968 being the best at something.

and lol on having to upgrade other things to do an engine swap.

and especially, lol at spending 10 grand in wheels and tires. bwahahahahahahaha

[flash968]

well, all i can say is that you must live in a different world. but then, you are in minnesota, so that probably explains a lot. people there put up with a lot of things i would not tolerate, and see no reason to. it's the same with cars. you would likely put up with inferior performance, whereas i would not.

in my world, my blue car has a dozen or so chips in the paint, so it's going in for a complete strip and repaint this winter. that's good for at least $8k. again, you get what you pay for. i will do that as many times as needed, to keep it looking new. my custom made recaro sportlines got dirty. i had them redone, because no amount of cleaning left them looking new.

i realize that most 944 owners don't have a pot to piss in. it's getting that way with 968 owners too. that's a normal regression, as the cars get older, and the value drops. it's the low rent district of porsches. that doesn't change the fact that i want more from the car, and have managed to get it.

back on topic, it also does not change the fact that increasing power, to the extent of a high power engine swap, dictates the necessity to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it. it's immutable. even porsche knew this, when they added a mere 75hp. they gave the suspension and brakes a major upgrade. it would be foolish to think that you wouldn't need to do similar things when you double the power.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by flash968

well, all i can say is that you must live in a different world. but then, you are in minnesota, so that probably explains a lot. people there put up with a lot of things i would not tolerate, and see no reason to. it's the same with cars. you would likely put up with inferior performance, whereas i would not.

WTF is this supposed to mean?

inferior performance, while talking about a 968 compared to literally any car under 300k ... bwahahahaha

ok, man, ok, whatever you say

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by flash968

well, all i can say is that you must live in a different world. but then, you are in minnesota, so that probably explains a lot. people there put up with a lot of things i would not tolerate, and see no reason to. it's the same with cars. you would likely put up with inferior performance, whereas i would not.

in my world, my blue car has a dozen or so chips in the paint, so it's going in for a complete strip and repaint this winter. that's good for at least $8k. again, you get what you pay for. i will do that as many times as needed, to keep it looking new. my custom made recaro sportlines got dirty. i had them redone, because no amount of cleaning left them looking new.

i realize that most 944 owners don't have a pot to piss in. it's getting that way with 968 owners too. that's a normal regression, as the cars get older, and the value drops. it's the low rent district of porsches. that doesn't change the fact that i want more from the car, and have managed to get it.

back on topic, it also does not change the fact that increasing power, to the extent of a high power engine swap, dictates the necessity to upgrade the rest of the car to handle it. it's immutable. even porsche knew this, when they added a mere 75hp. they gave the suspension and brakes a major upgrade. it would be foolish to think that you wouldn't need to do similar things when you double the power.

You live in a fantasy land. Tell Peter Pan hello when you see him.

[flash968]

lol - it's that kind of "stuck in the box" thinking that cracks me up all the time.

the blue 968 now does 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds, tops out at about 170mph, gets 25mpg, and carries 2 set of golf clubs, 2 cases of wine, a weekend of luggage, and the wife, all while being comforted by heated custom made leather seats, a full leather interior, and a sound system that rivals pretty much anything. what other 2 seat convertible, front engine, rear drive car does that, at ANY price? if it were out there, i would have bought it. granted, when i was shopping for a car, i set the limit at about $200k, but i didn't find anything then, and i haven't found anything yet (looked at the new jag, but no trunk space).

it makes total sense that i had to spend as much as i did. i wanted that much car. i would no sooner own a box stock 944 than i would a yugo. i looked at the 968 as a platform upon which i could build something. i did not look at is as a 968, and frankly hated the fact that it was a porsche (still do). i saw the car not as what it was, but rather what it could be. that may be sacrilege, but it is what it is. it has worked out well though.

is it a fantasy? for some i suppose it is, just as living in southern california would be. for me, it's a daily pleasure.

[Techno Duck]

Flash; you proved to me years ago you were an asshat, but i never saw the humor in how condescending you can be to us common folk.

I am surprised you will grace us with your time and stop what your doing in sunny southern California to bestow us poor common 944 folk living in the rest of the sub-par United States with your automotive and engineering expertise. Why do you lower your standards and hang out in the low rent district with us? Perhaps you should stick to the 968Forums where some may still be impressed by your $150k 968. Surely most of the low rent guys who visit this forum cant even count to $150k, so that is probably why noone is all that dazzled.

all i can say is that you must live in a different world. but then, you are in minnesota, so that probably explains a lot.

realize that most 944 owners don't have a pot to piss in. it's getting that way with 968 owners too. that's a normal regression, as the cars get older, and the value drops. it's the low rent district of porsches.

is it a fantasy? for some i suppose it is, just as living in southern california would be. for me, it's a daily pleasure.

terms of the people i hang out with though, who spend $100k buying a car without blinking, it is no big deal.