Alternative Engines for the 944 (other than a Chevy V8)

[Lapkritis]

You mean to say you don't want to add the hump to the hood too?

The shorter 4 cyls do sit further back so there is more room due to less slope of the hood. You might get away with it. The water neck on the bell housing side is also present on the vw/Audi 1.8t. There is space beneath the OEM outlet on the Audi head where you could relocate it with some machine work to create more space and blocking off the OEM port. Similar to the Mitsubishi, you would possibly need to whittle a solution out of a block of aluminum.

Found this from a 924 swap in the UK:




This is the vw/Audi 1.8T...

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by 924CarreraGTP

My ideas are probably unwanted here as they often are on conversion posts, but I don't care for the quality of anything mass produced by GM.
Porsche won the GTE-Pro, and GTE-Am classes at LeMans beating Corvette Racing in 2013, and in 2014 will probably take top honors in the P1 category. I have a feeling it's coming real soon. Seeing as how Porsche is statistically the most winning endurance racing car manufacturer in history. Over 20,000 wins, and 16 overall wins at LeMans. The 919 just took the fastest lap at Paul Ricard this week.
You can quote weight differences, power output, or whatever else you want to quote about the LS series engines, but they don't impress some of us. They will never be a Porsche engine. With money and development a Porsche can outperform a Corvette any day. 2013 LeMans is proof of that. Maybe not a tired old 944, or 968, but with development you could have a very fast car with a 944 Turbo, S2, or 968. Auto Haus had a 185mph 951 in the 1990's.
Next, something nobody ever mentions in these V8 superiority swap arguments is that the slant four of the 924/944/968 engines was designed to counter the weight of the driver on the right side of the car. Porsche engineers everything for a purpose. When you slap a V8 in a 944 you are not only changing the weight, but taking away dynamic handling balance of the car.
Therefore, a 951Turbo, S2, or 968 engine is in my book the only acceptable swap for a 944.
You can argue with me until you are blue in the face, but none of you are Porsche engineers. Also, nobody at Chevrolet is a Porsche engineer either. 2013 LeMans also showed that.
That is my .2 cents worth.
You are doing a Porsche 944 a disservice by going for the cheapest power plant swap that makes the most horsepower. The question is how long will it make that hp? Will it run 24 hour races as the stock 944 engines did in the 1980's? It's doubtful.
My partner and I spend every spare dime that we make on our Porsches, and I make them my own, but if I couldn't afford to modify my cars, I would drive them as is. I'll lose to new Corvettes with pride because in 1986 my 944 would tear a Corvette a new butthole on the race track, and well prepared 944 race cars still win constantly in SCCA racing.

lol, in every way the LS series of engines are more powerful, smaller, lighter, and more reliable then our nearing 30 year old power-plants. and if you try to build a turbo engine to put the numbers down that an LS engine does .... it only gets worse for the Porsche power plant.

what is with folks on these boards .... seriously ... delusionally nuts. so brand obsessed they can't see past that crest of Stuttgart up there ...

[BReif61]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

You mean to say you don't want to add the hump to the hood too?

The shorter 4 cyls do sit further back so there is more room due to less slope of the hood. You might get away with it.

Don't get me wrong, I love the DSM hood bump. But I dont think it would look quite right on a 944

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

lol, in every way the LS series of engines are more powerful, smaller, lighter, and more reliable then our nearing 30 year old power-plants. and if you try to build a turbo engine to put the numbers down that an LS engine does .... it only gets worse for the Porsche power plant.

what is with folks on these boards .... seriously ... delusionally nuts. so brand obsessed they can't see past that crest of Stuttgart up there ...

Another 1.8t 944 in New Hampshire that is raced:

Lemons 944 build (Team Got Wood)+ testing videos :: motorgeek.com









Looks like they tried to race and then just tossed the Porsche engine out after two identical catastrophic failures. Racing heritage doesn't mean jack to people who actually want to drive their cars hard and have fun.

[v2rocket_aka944]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

You mean to say you don't want to add the hump to the hood too?

The shorter 4 cyls do sit further back so there is more room due to less slope of the hood. You might get away with it. The water neck on the bell housing side is also present on the vw/Audi 1.8t. There is space beneath the OEM outlet on the Audi head where you could relocate it with some machine work to create more space and blocking off the OEM port. Similar to the Mitsubishi, you would possibly need to whittle a solution out of a block of aluminum.

Found this from a 924 swap in the UK:


This is the vw/Audi 1.8T...

Holy crap!
I could put a fridge in there.

Mount a giant Roots blower in front of that engine and make the 1.8 feel like an 8.1...

[9FF]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

...Racing heritage doesn't mean jack to people who actually want to drive their cars hard and have fun.

You are assuming everyone wants to "drive their cars hard and have fun". Well yes! but we are a diversified bunch here, some seek perfection, some originality, some just like to be unique, it's all good. If that's all that motivates you then that is fine, throw that V8 in there, it will do the job very nicely. Let's face it most racecars including F1 fit other engines in their cars, Lotus (Renault, Ford), Mclaren (Mercedes, Honda), etc., they are all fit for purpose.

I would love to build a high compression 3.0L na with standalone, direct ignition, dry sump and ITB's. It would cost a lot and probably be unreliable and need constant tweaking, but that's what motivates me.

I think it's good that we are a diversified bunch, it doesn't mean one person is stupid doing it one way when they can do it another way cheaper, better and faster, it just means that that is the way he or she wants to do it.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by 9FF

You are assuming everyone wants to "drive their cars hard and have fun". Well yes! but we are a diversified bunch here, some seek perfection, some originality, some just like to be unique, it's all good. If that's all that motivates you then that is fine, throw that V8 in there, it will do the job very nicely. Let's face it most racecars including F1 fit other engines in their cars, Lotus (Renault, Ford), Mclaren (Mercedes, Honda), etc., they are all fit for purpose.

I would love to build a high compression 3.0L na with standalone, direct ignition, dry sump and ITB's. It would cost a lot and probably be unreliable and need constant tweaking, but that's what motivates me.

I think it's good that we are a diversified bunch, it doesn't mean one person is stupid doing it one way when they can do it another way cheaper, better and faster, it just means that that is the way he or she wants to do it.

Check my wording again. You're assuming that I'm assuming; I clearly stated differently in the comment you quoted. Just want to make sure we're clear and you're not putting words in my mouth.

[9FF]

... You're assuming that I'm assuming; I clearly stated differently in the comment you quoted. Just want to make sure we're clear and you're not putting words in my mouth.

"You are assuming everyone wants to "drive their cars hard and have fun". Well yes!"

Lol, nope, not putting words in your mouth, actually agreeing with you

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

There are some topics that I personally hold as taboo and I know I'm not alone. It's the way I was raised. Talking about my money to impress while saying others don't have a pot to piss in flies in the face of proper manners as I understand them. This is my last interaction with you I hope as I feel dirty just reading your posts ripping on the community here. We can discuss costs of specific items and labor rates all day long but you've crossed a line from any hope of salvaging or earning respect.

Also taboo is "tooting your own horn." This is why I won't stand toe to toe to measure shafts with you. It's poor form of you to even ask. You're probably set in your ways and shrugging this insight off as my problem. I assure you, I don't encounter many folks so crass and obtuse. There are other venerable members here comfortable in their own skin and filth of mind. I don't think those few of you however vocal represent the community at large. I've seen plenty of good, helpful and encouraging people here including our host of which you are not.

I hope you find peace behind the wheel of your $150k 968 if not for how it drIves but in knowing and taking comfort in the fact that you've spent more than anyone else... if that's what makes you feel whole and superior to others. What a sad and shallow existence if that's how you're left to measure yourself in the back slope of life.

If we ever happen to meet up, I owe you a few beers. One of the best posts Ive ever seen on here.

[333pg333]

There are a few guys on Rennlist who have built some offset crank i4 Porsche motors very cheaply which are circa U.S. 450-500whp. I believe they make a strong argument for those of us that actually want to drive our cars with Porsche motors in them. Nobody is wearing Rose coloured glasses here. We don't think the i4 P motor is the be all and end all. Some of us just prefer to stick with the brand and improve upon it. If there are others that don't give a damn about this, then they have options. The V8 is clearly the most popular and running a lazy n/a V8 does make sense in terms of service costs and general reliability, however so do our motors if they're taken care of. My car is currently representing the model and marque quite well and lapping at about Cup Car speeds. I take a great joy by achieving this and keeping with the original layout. Don't blame people for going with the swap though, just doesn't 'sound' right to me. Purely subjective of course.

[PHillary]

Is it possible to put another Porsche engine in these like a 2000's model cayman or boxster engine just to keep it Porsche and make it newer or up to date.

[Tervuren]

I'd like to chime in and say thanks to those who weighed in on the Rover V8. Years ago I'd seen some pics of some rather expensively done up 944's in the UK with the swap, so it was what immediately came to mind. Seems to only be a viable alternative to a 'Vette engine if you're willing or want do have a "built" engine instead of simply trying to get it to fit.

If performance is your goal, it really is hard to beat the lightweight modern 'Vette powerplants.

I may be taking apart/rebuilding/upgrading the engine in my '84 944 mostly for the experience acquired along the way. Going into it - I do not see it as a sensible thing to do, but frankly, if we were all sensible, we'd live and work in the same place, and not drive at all.

As for the post made above mine, you'd want to be good with a cutter/welder.

Yes, it could be done, probably best to cut the rear out of the car and put in a subframe, locating the engine in the back half of the car. I doubt the width of a horizontally opposed engine would fit in the space of a midly slanted inline 4. You could of course, go super wide body with spreading out your strut towers with totally new fab work. Not impossible, but perhaps not practical.

The 944 kinda is what it is if you want to stick to Porsche powerplants. The 951 will be a lot faster for similar cost.

[Lapkritis]

Rover V8 swap (another 924 in the UK):

http://www.volkszone.com/VZi/showthread.php?t=568605









Looks like the intake manifold is a bit too tall...

[flash968]

i messed around with a couple of buick and oldsmobile 3.5s (from which the rover was derived). interesting engine. not good at high rpms though. too flexible. a girdle is needed. the olds was better than the buick, due to the head design. they had a few different compression ratios too, so you could mess around a bit there. very lightweight engine, at 302#. not a huge amount of torque, but not bad in a lightweight car. the rover engine has a better rear main seal than either of the predecessors, and is a stronger alloy. all of the engines are a bit tall though.

[EMBPilot]

Originally Posted by flash968

any car i was considering, had to be a 2 seat convertible, and had to have reasonable potential for performance, but the most important and inescapable features i was looking for was the ability to carry 2 cases of wine, 2 sets of golf clubs, a weekend of luggage, and the wife. the vette doesn't even come close. the 968 was the only car i could find that had the potential for what i was looking to have.

the vette doesn't come close to the way the blue 968 handles (handling and cornering being 2 very different animals). ... the vette corners very well, but feels very large and heavy. it's very sure-footed, but it certainly can't be called nimble. the new one is definitely the best so far, but still doesn't feel like what i was looking for. i did look at it though, ... i may swap the DB9 for the SL550, but not for the 968. ...

when considering power plants, i looked at everything i could find. in the end, the only thing that i could put in there that would not become a mess, was the 968 engine. i've built and driven 944 based V8 swaps and they drive like a vette (not a good thing). the hydroboost sucks and the powerplant and clutch were anything but smooth. gobs of torque, but you couldn't use it. fun to stomp on. crap around town. not what i was looking for. so, i rebuilt the 968 engine, beefed up the parts that needed it in there, and then boosted it.

lolz omg... so much fail, in such a tiny little post...

[Lapkritis]

An Audi 5cyl swap:





And another:

[333pg333]

Originally Posted by Lapkritis

Rover V8 swap (another 924 in the UK):

For Sale Porsche 924S V8 - wolf in sheeps clothing... - VW Forum - VZi, Europe's largest VW, community and sales









Looks like the intake manifold is a bit too tall...

Not even a Mother could love that abomination.

[924CarreraGTP]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

lol, in every way the LS series of engines are more powerful, smaller, lighter, and more reliable then our nearing 30 year old power-plants. and if you try to build a turbo engine to put the numbers down that an LS engine does .... it only gets worse for the Porsche power plant.

what is with folks on these boards .... seriously ... delusionally nuts. so brand obsessed they can't see past that crest of Stuttgart up there ...

What is it with people who can't read? I said "Maybe not a tired old 944 or 968, but with development you could have a very fast car." Also if the GM LS engines are so great why can't Corvette Racing seem to consistently beat Porsche?
All the while people keep saying that the 911 platform is "outdated", and "old technology". I guess it's not outdated enough that a rear engined car can't beat a Corvette on a race track.
The question is what is it with people who can't read statistics and realize that GM hasn't done much of anything in endurance racing? In fact, Corvettes didn't do ANYTHING until they stole the transaxle platform from the Porsche 924/944/968/928 series. They were the worst handling sports cars made until then.
Also, show me a Corvette that will make 1000hp and I'll show you Porsche 911's that will make 1200-1400 with two less cylinders. Not to mention Porsche had a 240mph race car in 1970. There is no comparison.
Also this is a Porsche forum. So if you don't know the history of Porsche, or say Ruf. Maybe you shouldn't be spitting nonsense here.
The Audi 5 cylinder swap looks cool. The 944 body was built at Audi Neckarsulm anyway. lol They used to put Rover V8's in Triumph TR7's. So Triumph responded with the TR8 which was a TR7 with a production Rover V8.

[tedg04]

Originally Posted by 924CarreraGTP

What is it with people who can't read? I said "Maybe not a tired old 944 or 968, but with development you could have a very fast car." Also if the GM LS engines are so great why can't Corvette Racing seem to consistently beat Porsche?

Are you aware of the racing record the C5R had? In any case, this thread isn't about Porsche racing victories vs. Corvette, it's about potential engine swaps from other vehicles (fyi - the LS platform is in a lot of Chevy vehicles, not just Corvette race cars).

All the while people keep saying that the 911 platform is "outdated", and "old technology". I guess it's not outdated enough that a rear engined car can't beat a Corvette on a race track.

Seems from left field - did someone say the 911 platform was outdated in this thread? Or anywhere? All of the Porsche complaints I've read lately come from too much development and everyone wanting a simpler, more responsive car (dang electronics and PDK transmissions and such).

The question is what is it with people who can't read statistics and realize that GM hasn't done much of anything in endurance racing?

Again, C5R and C6R.

In fact, Corvettes didn't do ANYTHING until they stole the transaxle platform from the Porsche 924/944/968/928 series. They were the worst handling sports cars made until then.

Which Porsche 'stole' from Lancia, Skoda, Ferrari, and Alfa?

Also, show me a Corvette that will make 1000hp and I'll show you Porsche 911's that will make 1200-1400 with two less cylinders.

With turbo(s). Poor comparison, and truly irrelevant as logistically swapping a Turbo flat 6 into a 924/944 would take significantly more work than a LS.

Not to mention Porsche had a 240mph race car in 1970. There is no comparison.
Also this is a Porsche forum. So if you don't know the history of Porsche, or say Ruf. Maybe you shouldn't be spitting nonsense here.

Looking eternally to the past and at heritage will never garner innovation, and will ultimately result in inadequacy.

The Audi 5 cylinder swap looks cool. The 944 body was built at Audi Neckarsulm anyway. lol They used to put Rover V8's in Triumph TR7's. So Triumph responded with the TR8 which was a TR7 with a production Rover V8.

It was okay for Triumph to do it, but not Porsche?

I'm just a young whipper-snapper, but spent more time as a child at PCA events than at little league. While I appreciate Porsche history and technology, no company, person, engineer, or engineering team is infallible. Furthermore, no one beats father time. As the days go by, our vehicles become more and more outdated. From a historical standpoint that's fine. And I wouldn't advocate someone putting a LS swap into a 944 cup (or for that matter a Silver Rose). However, on a dime-a-dozen early 944 or non-special 944 turbo (like mine), I don't see the tragedy.

[Techno Duck]

Regarding those Audi swaps, the quality of the builds done in Sweden and Finland always impresses me.

Looks like the black one lost the vacuum booster. I would guess from the lack of master cylinder in the engine bay they went with a pedal box inside the cabin. Would be interesting to see more pictures if anyone can find them.