help with seized engine

[jvandyke]

really hard to see much of anything looking down at the timing window at the top of the bell housing, nothing obvious, I'll try to leave it alone until the scope gets here,

[grendiers]

You could drain the oil, if chunks of metal come out, then there's a problem.

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by grendiers

You could drain the oil, if chunks of metal come out, then there's a problem.

Yep, did that. Oil looked okay, slightly overfilled took out close to 7qts, should be a tad under 6 I understand. I fished a magnet on a stick up in the oil pan (through the drain hole) and it came out clean.

[grendiers]

6.87 quarts.

[jwade944]

Try raising the rear, push the clutch (assuming the clutch works), put it in gear, turn the rear wheels by hand with the clutch still in. That will rule out the transaxle and clutch. My vote is that the issue is something locking the flywheel in the bell housing.

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by jwade944

Try raising the rear, push the clutch (assuming the clutch works), put it in gear, turn the rear wheels by hand with the clutch still in. That will rule out the transaxle and clutch. My vote is that the issue is something locking the flywheel in the bell housing.

okay but the car rolls alright in neutral so should turn over in neutral too?
I noticed the clearance between the front face (engine side) of the flywheel and block/oil pan is very little, even seems to just barely touch the pan gasket in one corner, not saying it hits, just wondering if that's "normal". There's no fore/aft play in it (little pry bar and gentle prying of the flywheel foreword/backward and there is no movement (which there shouldn't be I wouldn't think)

I'm also still thinking there's something jamming the flywheel. There are plastic bits from the position/speed sensor harness connector laying around the inspection hole but I highly doubt a hunk of plastic would hold up the works even if it could get to someplace to jam, but we'll see. If so, it would only be one way I'd think. Those mangled connections were one of the first things I stumbled on, someone was very ham-fisted. I have since reconnected them, despite broken bits, they still grab okay, will replace at least the harness down the road.
I doubt the sensor itself would jam it? Research says the position sensor reads a set screw on the flywheel but the sensors themselves to not look like they have ever been disturbed.
Oh, i should mention the PO had replaced the slave cylinder, given his apparent ham-fisted approach, maybe he did leave something lurking in the moving bits.
I will look into the methods for clutch replacement as that will give me all the access I'd need, if it comes to that, I wish that scope would get here!

[jwade944]

It's possible someone dropped a bolt into the window on top of the bell housing if they were removing the position and speed sensors. Clutch job is a bear with the engine in the car. Since you will probably be replacing seals, I suggest pulling the engine rather than the transaxle. Good news is these are great cars and it should be a great experience for you and your son. If it has not been done, replace all of the rubber fuel lines. (30 year old rubber is pretty brittle and fires have claimed a number of these cars.)

[jvandyke]

Okay, we'll get it in the end.
I resurrected an '81 Fiat X1/9 that was in a similar state. It's now my DD with about 50,000 miles on it since then so I know it can be done!

[jvandyke]

I should mention I have a lift (got it operational about 2 days before the Porsche arrived).
So working under the car is a treat! Pulling the tranaxle/drive line/clutch, motor well, it isn't as daunting a task as it used to be! (thanks wife!)

[jvandyke]

did a little scoping, managed to feed the borescope into the bell housing, pretty interesting but inconclusive, no "smoking gun". Went in through the upper passenger side opening, and a little through the timing mark inspection hole from the top, camera doesn't fit too deep in there though. The camera head has a tendency to get stuck too.
Can't see anything in the bores, am going to try that again on Tuesday with yet another scope. But I highly doubt it's valves because all the pistons seem to be about mid stroke as I probe them from the spark plug holes with a stick.
I will continue probing.
What about an internal bearing failure? I suppose if a rod/bearing let loose and got wedged it'd lock things up. I tried to scope the oil pain through the drain hole but couldn't make out anything. Hopefully the next scope reveals more.

[dgcantrell]

I'd just go ahead and pull the engine. You'll spend about as much or more time poking around trying to find the issue. If there is something binding up the flywheel, you'll have to pull it anyway to find it. If it has spun a bearing and the crank is seized (and I don't think it is based on the description of the oil), you'll have to pull it. Also a benefit to pulling the engine, it will allow you to clean it up and the engine bay a LOT easier.

[jvandyke]

So we were dinking around with it, scoping out the flywheel and oil pan and bores and I grabbed the breaker bar on the crank and my son watched the flywheel. It moved a fraction, back and forth about 6 times and bam, she was free!
So it's not siezed anymore, spun around many times and no drama.
Starting getting ready to light her off, fresh oil, spent a LONG time trying to clear the ATF/acetone out of the bores. Had to try and fire it off; pops and wants to go but didn't quite do it and didn't sound all that great trying to so prudence won out and we called it an evening.
Gotta figure out a good way to clear the bores out. Hand pump didn't want to grab anything, resorted to soaking up as much as I could with paper towels poked into bores and spinning it over plugless. I kinda thought that might not be a bad thing; running the pistons up and down a bit in the ATF and acetone/PB Blaster cocktail. But now they need to be clean.

[grendiers]

Most of that should have dropped into the crankcase by now. With new oil/filter, and the plugs are installed, I'd pull the coil wire and ground it the block. Then spin the engine over, and watch for oil pressure. That procedure will oil the lifters, cam, etc., and tell you there's pressure or not. If so, then try starting it.

[jvandyke]

super, we did just that, saw just 1 bar during cranking which slowly fell back to zero, did that maybe 4 times but probing the bores with a paper towel "wick" was still coming up with ATF on them, I don't know how anal to be about that, don't really want to hydro lock it or something awful just due to impatience.
Unless I come up with something better, we're just going to go through that routine again a few times and then go for fire.
Got this really cool inspection camera but dang if I can't get it to work! Will try to restrain ourselves and take it slow. Good news is it turns over smoothly and quickly so whatever was hanging it up has cleared, hope the bores and rings will be happy now.

[dgcantrell]

The ATF will burn off fairly quickly. Plus it's been sitting long enough for most of the stuff you put in there to work past the rings. If it turned over fast enough to develop 14PSI of oil pressure, it's certainly not going to hydrolock on you if you start it. It may smoke for minute or two burning that stuff out of the cylinders but it should be ok..

I'd still see if I could find something loose laying around in the bell housing that may have been the culprit causing the lock up. If that was what it was, it could get picked up again. NOT good if the engine is running..

[jvandyke]

I had my son stand by the flywheel (yes STAND by it, lifts are da bomb!) While I turned the crank via ratchet (yes, ratchet, no more breaker bars!) and listen and watch, nothing apparent in flywheel, I believe it really had a little hang up in the bores.
I was surprised by how much ATF was still showing on my paper towel dip sticks dipped into the bores. It seemed to just keep soaking it up!

[jvandyke]

Hopefully the Nikasil isn't compromised, I understand that could be the kiss of death.

[dgcantrell]

Run the pistons down all the way on each cylinder one at a time and use the scope to view the cylinder walls.. Unless a piston's rings were stuck at the bottom of the stroke, you should be able to see where a ring may have been rusted to the cylinder wall. I'm still having a hard time believing that it was a stuck piston.

A compromise in the cylinder coating would not necessarily be a kiss of death so to speak. Disassembling the engine and having it dressed (blob honed) and the silicone coating reapplied would probably be fine. Provided they measure within tolerance and do not have any scoring. New rings too.

[Rasta Monsta]

Originally Posted by grendiers

I'd pull the coil wire and ground it the block.

I'd pull the DME relay instead, so as not to wash the cylinders with fuel.