Reviving 951... help please

beefey · 01-25-2009, 09:09 PM

My father pretty much drove his 88' 951 into the ground that he had since new. It sat in a shed for 6 years. It has 250k+ miles. There are no records (he has a hard time with receipts) and I'm starting to rebuild it to the point to at least it runs. I'm only looking into throwing maybe a couple thousand tops into this car at this time.

Currently I have the car in my garage, all dash lights come on but when you turn the key to the start position NOTHING at all happens. I've tried the infamous relay and moved on to thinking it is the starter. The new one should be here soon. My question is there anything else that seriously needs to be done before I attempt to start it once the starter is in?

I've took a peek at the timing belts and they "appear" good but if this thing actually does run I will replace them. I dont really feel like throwing $$$$ at parts and tools if it isnt even going to start.

The MAF looks to be almost unusable. Take a look at the pictures attached, I've never seen one that bad. Is it possible to clean them? If so with what like carb and choke cleaner?

Damn mice made a nice nest under the intake manifold. Is this a problem that needs to be address before running?

I've read someone dropped their gas in the tank before starting the car out of storage... Is this necessary? Do I need to prime the pump by jumping the DME?

I all the hoses are pretty soggy but would this keep the car from actually starting. Bad vacuum pressure would just make it poorly running, correct?

Sorry for the word diarrhea. I'm so pumped to work on this car because like I'm sure you guys all know there is "some" potential for this car that has been so thoughtlessly condemned.

I really appreciate your response. Thank you in advance.

Thanks,
Beefey

jmj996 · jmj996's Garage

Wow, you have a ton of work ahead of you, but as this car probably has enough sentimental value to you to make it worth it, I wouldn't try to tell you not to get into it. By the looks of it, you're going to end up replacing several thousands of dollars worth of stuff to have it really running right.

It may be too late to tell you now, but before dropping money on the starter, it would have definitely been worth removing it to take the old one in for a free test. It's very easy to get out. The starter may be fine. It might possibly be as simple as a grounding problem (and you've probably checked all of the fuses, right?). I'm not an expert on the electrical system of this car, but I have a whole list of things to recommend. First things first, since you have a new starter on the way, just take the old one out now and take it in to be tested.

What you heard about the fuel is correct. You will want a new fuel filter anyway, so remove the old fuel filter, drain all of the gas (you probably already know, but you will need the fuel pump running for this), & install new filter. That should be good enough, though you could go a step further and drain the fuel rail if you wanted to take it that far. Be very careful to watch for fuel leaks when you first pressurize the fuel system, I wouldn't count on the old injector o-rings being up to the job anymore (fortunately these are cheap and easy to change).

You'll obviously want to change ALL of the fluids. If you have a brake bleeder for this car or can borrow one, be sure to bleed it out now, while you have the starter out, because you will need to bleed the clutch slave cylinder line as well and it's a WHOLE lot easier with the starter removed, it's right there, and the fluid is relatively cheap so it's not like you're investing anything in it to do that part of the job.

The Air Flow Meter (MAF) may not be a problem at all. Just clean it out, see if the 'barn door' will move freely, and give it a shot. I wouldn't run out and get another AFM on ebay just yet.

The belts look fine for some test runs. As long as you don't see any significant cracks and the tension feels fine (i.e. can't twist it more than 90 degrees) it should be okay for starters. You're going to want to get some engine cleaning products such as Sea Foam as well, something that will clean up the deposits and loosen up the piston rings.

Have you tried putting a socket on the crankshaft and seeing if you can turn the engine over by hand (with a nice long socket wrench)? Maybe even pull the spark plugs first to make it that much easier.

beefey · 01-25-2009, 11:59 PM

Hey jmj thanks for the response it is much appreciated! I didnt even need to have the starter bench tested because the grounding wire from the solnoid to the motor body looked like one of those black snakes that you buy at fireworks shops lol. Basically the wire was totally gone... The shape the thing was in was horid. Rediculously rusty with little hope of worth. I could have tried to solder back on the grounding wire and one of the terminals twisted off on me when I was removing it so I would have had to try to solder a new one of those on too... Just not worth $35. BUT the ring gear looks good.

I dont think I'm going to worry about clutches and brakes just yet. I just want to get this thing running (if it can be done). Best case senario it is simply the starter. Worst case I need to start diving into wiring which is going to be horrible if that is the case.

The motor is completely free, there is a bit of resistance, you cannot turn the crank pulley with your hand but it is not rusted tight. Does anyone know the exact size of the crank pulley bolt? I got away with a 15/16" socket but that is odviously not correct...

What is the correct for starting the fuel pump? Also where is the DME located? Yes I'm a n00b.

Thanks guys your the best!
Beefey

mikeran · mikeran's Garage

I am a bit farther a head of you, the one I bought only sat for about 2 years and it did start but needed a ton of work, I replaced all the hoses, vaccuum lines, belts, seals, got it running and then the BOV failed from age, I would suggest if you get it running you change all the above out and the BOV, if mice made a nest you have to check your wiring, they tend to chew through it. The one I bought was parked from a leaking power steering rack, that was a lot of work to change out.

You should drain off all the bad gas, change the filter and put in fresh gas to start the car.

JoshB · 01-26-2009, 08:47 AM

Not to be a downer but unless you just have a strong sentimental attachment to this particular car I wouldn't try to revive it. Seems like more of a parts car to me expecially with the rust.

When these aluminum engines sit for so long you start to get some corrosion on the rings against the cylinder walls and then when the engine turns over you get instant damage. Really would have been better to fill the cylinders with atf fluid and let it sit for a while then turn the engine just a little manually and let it sit some more.

You are looking at a lot of work most likely - clutch, timing belt, water pump, oil pan gasket, turbo replacement, cracked exhaust manifold, possible bad injector connectors, fried battery harness, dry rotted oil/water linesn dead tires, brake fluid lines etc etc not to mention possible worn tranny etc and most likely a nasty headgasket....

Hats off to you if you proceed but once you are done at best you'll have a 944 turbo worth 4k. My two cents would be to sell that for parts or part it yourself and buy a running 944 turbo if that is what you really wanted anyways....

beefey · 01-26-2009, 10:03 AM

If I take off the intake manifold to see how much the mice liked my wires do I need to buy a new gasket?

Rather than ATF in the cylinders I've heard of alot of people putting diesel in the cylinders. By the looks of that MAF a LOT of **** was allowed to pass into the engine due to a poor air filter. That really kills engines right?

As far as the body I can pretty much spray the whole thing for free. I have very good ties with a body shop. I'm not too worried about that becides the time investment, which I know will be HUGE. Another buddy of mine works at a shop and he can steal me all the hose/lines I need. So that's also no cost. What is going to cost is I need new rear calipers.

I called a few junk yards around here and they said they would pay $200 on the car. 6 months ago it was worth $100 in scrap so I figure I dont have a ton to lose. If I buy a starter, air filter, plugs, fuel filter, and a gallon of fuel that set me back maybe $100 and I could recover like 50 on ebay. I dont see it as a very expensive project so far until I see that it runs.

mikeran · mikeran's Garage

Be careful when you start it, mine had almost no belt tension after sitting for only 2 years, Nick from Bennington Motorsports was amazed it was still running with that belt.

mikeran · mikeran's Garage

And you will need intake gaskets anyway since you will have to replace all the vaccuum lines, they will be shot from dry rot.

beefey · 01-26-2009, 10:46 AM

I really want to get it to somewhat fire before I totally dive in... I would like to pull out the insulation from under the manifold tho. So can I get away with pulling the manifold and then using the same gasket?

-Beefey

JoshB · 01-26-2009, 10:54 AM

I think the problem here is that in your effort to get it running before you dive in you could very easily create the need for some expensive repairs. There is no way I would crank an interference motor with a 6 year old at least if not 10 year old timing belt. That first belt you pictured is the balance belt - the one behind it is the timing belt. If the timing belt breaks or slips you get bent valves in the head or worse.

If all your injectors aren't firing you get a hydralocked engine and most likely a broken rod or major scorage in the cylinder from wash.

If you don't wake up the motor properly you get a worthless scored block.

You can't re-use intake gaskets - just a slight vacuum leak and the car will barely run if at all.

Best of luck on your project - you could probably put it up for sale as is before you do anything else and get 1k out of it. Where are you located anyways?

beefey · 01-26-2009, 11:20 AM

Located in Minnesota... No reason to put a thousand dollars into a car if nothing is going to come of it.

JoshB · 01-26-2009, 11:23 AM

Minnesota eh? That would explain the rust - rarely see that on the 944 series cars.

Well - I'll be interested to see how your project comes along. You'll find lots of info on this site and also Clarks's Garage.

http://www.clarks-garage.com/

beefey · 01-26-2009, 12:26 PM

I've rebuilt lots of M3's and I'm somewhat spoiled by the bentley manuals. They are amazing. I have the porsche factory manuals and they are just ok at best... The haynes works good if you run out of toilet paper.

-Beefey

beefey · 01-26-2009, 03:00 PM

You mentioned putting ATF in the cylinders, I've taken your advice and done that. When you turn over the engine (with the starter) do you just let it blow out the plug holes or actually let it go out through the exhaust?

Techno Duck · Techno Duck's Garage

Dont sweat the accumulation in the AFM, that is pretty typical i find, alot of that is just oil blowby that made it back too the AFM. Pick up a can of CRC MAF sensor cleaner and spray it out.

The crank bolt is 24mm.

I would buy a new timing belt and balance shaft belt. That will set you back less than $50. New intake manifold gaskets are like $1.50 each.

If it were me, i would pull the cylinder head before doing anything with the car just to take a look.

If you simply want to get it running on the cheap, i would remove the intake manifold and take a look at all the wiring and hoses under there. Replace anything obviously faulty and clean up what you can. Throw the intake back on and replace the belts. Change the fluids and try and start it up. That will cost you under $100 and a couple hours of time. Before you start it, take the DME relay out (disable fuel pump) and remove the coil wire. Crank the car over until you build oil pressure on the gauge.

Honestly that car looks like its going to be alot of work to get running tip top. But if your dedicated and willing, its worth a shot. How is the interior?

beefey · 01-26-2009, 09:50 PM

Interior is bad but I'm thinking I'm going to strip it out anyways. Right now I'm driving a 323is bimmer. I just want a car to have some good clean fun with that is a little faster. Hopefully if I get it dialed in it will put a smile on my face.

I took the fuel filter out. I dont know that it was ever changed. I usually cut them open for fun and dont really see anything out of the ordinary but this one was 1/2 black 1/2 normal cardboard color

I'm looking at the section on DME/Fuel Pump relay on Clark's and it is somewhat unclear on how to JUST start the fuel pump. Do you simply jump pins 30 to 87b?

http://www.Clark's-garage.com/shop-manual/fuel-05.htm

Thanks Guys!
Beefey

sl66ICEcuba · 01-27-2009, 06:48 AM

Wow, congrats on keeping away from the scrapper. Good luck!

JoshB · 01-27-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beefey

You mentioned putting ATF in the cylinders, I've taken your advice and done that. When you turn over the engine (with the starter) do you just let it blow out the plug holes or actually let it go out through the exhaust?

Don't turn the motor with the starter - turn it over 90 degrees ever couple days with a ratchet on the crank bolt. Then I would take a shop vac and suck out the atf and then do an oil change. After you get her running and driving around might need another oil change shortly.

Own Goal · 01-27-2009, 10:41 AM

I wish you luck, but with that many miles it will be a project. I know since I bought one with over 200k miles that had been stored for over a year last summer. I knew the engine was going to come out but had excellent interior and paint so fit what I was looking for. That said, right now there are some very nice cars with a lot of aftermarket goodies out there in the $5-7k range.
I did get mine running for about a month to assess what I had before breaking it down. My buddy that helps me was a dealer tech for over 20+ years so have good help. First thing we did was pull the plugs and squirt some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders. I let that sit for about a week. Then I charged up a battery, pulled the coil wire and plugs and spun it over to lube up. I did that for about 30 seconds a day for another week. Then we put some new plugs in and had a go at it. Tank was almost empty but not quite so added 5 gal new and a can of Berrymans. A lot of lifter noise and smoke at first but ran and didn’t mess anything up that wasn’t messed up already. Oh yea, and keep a fire extinguisher handy when you get ready. She’s been sleeping a lot time so wake her up slow and easy.

beefey · 01-27-2009, 03:55 PM

Since I got the car for nothing and if the engine has good compression (when he parked it it ran well) I think I can make this car run for less than 1k. As long as there is no high ticket items such as clutch, bearings, tranny etc...

So far I have:
1. Air Fliter = $13.00
2. Oil Filter/Oil = $20
3. Fuel Filter = $16.25
4. 5 gal fuel = $10
5. Used starter = $40

So If I can at least get this thing to run on under $100 (99.25) I'm pretty happy. If I indeed get it to the point where it may be driven on the road the value has went up considerably higher than $100. Brakes are going to cost me though. I think they are shot, at least the calipers in the back.

Can anyone tell me if this is typical to put a fuse here? It looks like it was modified. This goes to the starter correct? Your looking at the positive terminal of the battery connector.

Thanks Guys,
Beefey