Stupid time to buy 964?

[rohanjoshi]

Recently sold my 2010 M3 and am missing a sportscar more than I thought I would...

Similarly to my Ducati superbike, the M3 was almost too much car to enjoy at a brisk pace on the street. That said, I am shopping air-cooled Porsche 911's.

It seems prices for the aircooled porsches have almost doubled since I looked at prices a few years ago, so I am having major sticker shock and doubts if now is a good time.

Similar to Obama's gun panic's, are prices super inflated the moment?

My budget is 40k. Looking for Red coupe or cab with tan/beige interior. There's zero reason I shouldn't be able to buy a 964 for that but it seems everything is ~45k mark! (or even 993 but those are 55kish)

Am I being stupid for wanting to buy a 911 right now?

[sunlion]

I've got a red cab. Not perfect but drives well. Mechanically sound. Ive been sorting it for a while. Its affordable. Call/text me, Ravi 425 241 8620

[Bravoaloha]

I really like using BAT's historical pricing graphs to get a feel for vehicle values.

https://bringatrailer.com/porsche/964/ Looks like you'll be able to find something in your budget. Good luck!

[Newsboy]

Waiting will not bring down prices. 964 is the last air cooled that looked like those that came before.

[914986]

Take it from me, I shopped around quite a bit, three years ago, and not sure you'll find a good example for $40k.

I had a 964 coupe 20 years ago and loved it, traded it for a almost new 986 (which I loved) that got sold. Three years ago I was on a mission to find another 964 coupe with a max budget of $35k. Not super up to date on prices at the time, but three years ago was probably a high point in 964 pricing. I "settled" for a good '91 targa and still went over budget. My 964 is red/cashmere and I could be persuaded to sell it. It's not perfect or show quality, but it's a solid car. PM me if of any interest.

[Ralph3.]

Look at Cab's but make sure you have some money in your reserve fund for any issues that might come up after purchase. Don't think you are going to find many coupes in your price range.

[59 burst]

OP, do you have to have a manual ? If not , you can certainly save some coin. But manual coupe will be tougher as this is most sought out. I’ve never driven an auto 964. I’d like to try it though. Have to try them all.

[914986]

Originally Posted by 59 burst

OP, do you have to have a manual ? If not , you can certainly save some coin. But manual coupe will be tougher as this is most sought out. I’ve never driven an auto 964. I’d like to try it though. Have to try them all.

The early Tiptronic is just a few notches above any other automatic transmission. You get the best performance by just leaving it in D, hammering the throttle, and left foot braking to keep the engine spooled up

[Cobalt]

The tips aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Only a 4 speed VW auto trans with some Porsche improvements it pulls like freight train when manual shifted and is far nicer in traffic than the manual. Although I am a diehard manual owner I wouldn't turn my nose up at a well sorted tip.

There will never be another good time to buy a 964. Right now cabs are the best bet and if you have the funds you can convert a cab into a coupe if you have a good bodyman. The C2 coupe's are so rare and sought after good luck finding one without $30k in needs for under $50k. Best thing to do is save up and keep your eyes open and be ready to pounce on a good one when they come along. The good ones never last and the cars on BaT are far from what I consider good cars. I know of at least 20 of the cars that sold on BaT and they cost the average owner an additional $20k in repairs after the buy in and many still need multiples of thousands in work.

[mikedsilva]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

The tips aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Only a 4 speed VW auto trans with some Porsche improvements it pulls like freight train when manual shifted and is far nicer in traffic than the manual. Although I am a diehard manual owner I wouldn't turn my nose up at a well sorted tip.

There will never be another good time to buy a 964. Right now cabs are the best bet and if you have the funds you can convert a cab into a coupe if you have a good bodyman. The C2 coupe's are so rare and sought after good luck finding one without $30k in needs for under $50k. Best thing to do is save up and keep your eyes open and be ready to pounce on a good one when they come along. The good ones never last and the cars on BaT are far from what I consider good cars. I know of at least 20 of the cars that sold on BaT and they cost the average owner an additional $20k in repairs after the buy in and many still need multiples of thousands in work.

Sounds like BAT is not a good place to buy, but would be a GREAT place to sell!

[Cobalt]

If you can't have a proper PPI or at least have the opportunity to look the car over prior to the auction ending I wouldn't consider buying a 964 or any car in fact on BaT. Not all sellers on BaT are unscrupulous but they have had their share and I have seen some people buy emotionally get screwed. IMO the sellers made out far better than the buyers in most cases.

Also people put too much merit into carfax which is a tool that doesn't always tell the whole story.

There is a beautiful coral red turbo on BaT now. If it is to sell for a premium it should be original paint. The seller shows meter readings done by a reputable shop but the shop only mentions the rear bumper being painted. With readings well into 16 Mils and more the car has clearly been repainted. Some say why should it matter on a 30 year old car. In some ways if done properly it shouldn't matter too much but the ?? is why was it painted with such low miles and was it done to fix damage or just tired paint and was it done properly. Some of those readings are either from a very heavy hand or bondo.

[K24madness]

I am of the belief the best time to buy is when you’re ready. Market conditions will always vary but your time with a prime piece of Porsche history is the truly unknown variable.

I look back on the great cars I’ve owned over the years and smile. While I was never reckless I also didn’t hesitate to make a deal happen even if I felt it was priced a bit more than it should have been. The years of enjoyment will trump any bump to my retirement account when the final reconciliation is done. Conversely I hear stories of those who walked away from xxx car due to relatively minor price differences only to have decades of regret of what could have been.

With all that being said I can’t imagine a better time to buy than this year looking forward. Best of luck finding your next Porsche love affair.

[Wphelps]

It took me many 911’s to realize that the 964 is by far the greatest Air Cooled or maybe best Porsche built.
You must be a fan of the 964, a all in fan, it’s old body to 1965, it’s got good power fun to drive it’s own power steering it’s the best
So the real 964 cars will be the C2 cars, most people do not realize that the type 964 was very low value, cars were not selling and most wanted a convertible sports car and maybe a automatic too
Well that’s the bulk were like that example a 1991 C2 was only 801 cars but you must remove the tips from that.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Wphelps

It took me many 911’s to realize that the 964 is by far the greatest Air Cooled or maybe best Porsche built.
You must be a fan of the 964, a all in fan, it’s old body to 1965, it’s got good power fun to drive it’s own power steering it’s the best
So the real 964 cars will be the C2 cars, most people do not realize that the type 964 was very low value, cars were not selling and most wanted a convertible sports car and maybe a automatic too
Well that’s the bulk were like that example a 1991 C2 was only 801 cars but you must remove the tips from that.

Where are you getting 801 C2 coupes from? I have not been able to break out the total number of C2's. All the info from any of the major sources groupe the C4/C2 and tips in the same grouping since they all shared the same vin number. We know a total of 1548 coupes were imported in 1991 how many were C4's vs C2's vs tips or Canadian cars vs US is a number we haven't been able to determine yet. Any info confirming number of C2's vs C4's is always appreciated. We do know that total of 5106 coupes were imported between 89 and 94 which is a very low number Considering how many were C4's with 1057 being the 89's alone.

[Noah930]

For 1991, the Redbook claims for America: 1608 coupes, 746 targas, and 2207 cabs. No breakdown on C2/C4 or transmission. Also 674 turbos. Peter Morgan's book, Original Porsche 911, lists the same numbers.

[Cobalt]

Redbook, Peter Morgan and Adrian Streather are all incorrect. I know this has been the published numbers for a long time and I have been trying to get people to understand that they are all incorrect.

I had been arguing this for well over a decade but nobody believed me until Porsche noted in Classic book volume 2 that vin numbers 001-060 are not used for production vehicles starting with the 964. All vin numbers begin with 061 instead of 001.

All the last vin numbers are known but you need to subtract 60 from the total number based off the last known vin.

Last known vin
Coupes...1608-60 = 1548
targas......746-60 = 686
cabs.......2207-60 = 2147
turbos......674-60 = 614

This is applied to each and every vin number for both US and ROW production. I had run several threads over on rennlist and nobody has been able to produce a single vin below 061 for any model.

We also don't have a full understanding of how many cars were double counted due to code M718 which changes the vin from the prior MY to a year later. This applied to US spec cars only. In the case of the 1994 turbo 3.6 for example we know the last vin number is 466 for 1994 although the first 288 units were actually produced in 1993 and sold as 1994 MY cars via option M718 and the engines and transmissions all carry a P code but the vin number carries an R code. These cars for a long time were double counted as 93 and 94 MY cars and many reputable sources claimed a total of 754 were imported in US spec. In actuality there were the 39 known turbo S Flachbau's, 15 turbo S package cars and 335 US spec stock 94 turbos imported to the US an additional 13 stock turbos went to Canada 2 more with the X33 power package and 2 more of the turbo S package cars. This info was verified by Gabriel and Franz in their book on air cooled Porsche's. Add these numbers up and you get 406 but you need to subtract the turbo S and package cars out as they fall into an entirely different category.

So as you can see there are a considerable number less of the 964's produced than everyone seems to believe. The known sources won't admit to their errors and we have not seen any change in these numbers which needs to be corrected.

[Cobalt]

Adding to above this is what I know to be the true number of 964 coupes imported

1989 C4........Manual.........1057
1990 C2/C4...M/tip............1257
1991 C2/C4...M/tip............1548
1992 C2/C4...M/tip..............655
1993 C2/C4...M/Tip.............460
1994 C2........M/Tip.............129*
Total US coupe production....5106

* the 1994 C4 widebody and C2 narrow body share the same vin numbers we know through Norbert's site Turbo-look register that 267 of the C4 widebody cars were imported last vin number being 456-60 = 396 - 267 = 129. Although there is rumor that some of these might have been M718 coded from 1993.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I had been arguing this for well over a decade but nobody believed me until Porsche noted in Classic book volume 2 that vin numbers 001-060 are not used for production vehicles starting with the 964. All vin numbers begin with 061 instead of 001.

All the last vin numbers are known but you need to subtract 60 from the total number based off the last known vin.

So instead of 158 (or however many the books state) US targas being built in 1990, there were actually only 98 made?

I was looking over at the Ultimate 964 Targa thread on rennlist, and 1990 VINs range from ...075 up to ...721, so I can't just take the largest VIN and subtract by 60. It appears the VINs weren't exactly sequential.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/518813-the-ultimate-964-targa-thread.html

I don't really care one way or the other if my car is "one of 158" or "one of 98"--just curious now that you've raised the issue.

[aigel]

It is brutal. This used to be the ugly step child. Cheap. When I was shopping in 2005, you could get a decent higher mileage 964 for under 20k. I recall offering 12 on one. Yes, I didn't get it, but still ... I struggled with the gear box - very long 5 speed made the car pretty sluggish IMHO.

If it needs to be a 964 it needs to be. That said, the 993 is a much more refined car for not a whole lot more, I'd add it to the shopping list if it is an option.

If it were me, I'd wait for the COVID situation to play out. But you'll have to be without a sportscar probably until winter. My bet is by December you'll know if the market softened.

I posted this elsewhere, but if you believe Hagerty's analysis, softening it will.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/news/what-the-coronavirus-outbreak-means-for-the-collector-car-market/

G

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Noah930

So instead of 158 (or however many the books state) US targas being built in 1990, there were actually only 98 made?

I was looking over at the Ultimate 964 Targa thread on rennlist, and 1990 VINs range from ...075 up to ...721, so I can't just take the largest VIN and subtract by 60. It appears the VINs weren't exactly sequential.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/518813-the-ultimate-964-targa-thread.html

I don't really care one way or the other if my car is "one of 158" or "one of 98"--just curious now that you've raised the issue.

Very valid point. You know they say there is an exception to every rule. For some reason 1990 was the year of the exception and the verdict is still out on these.

I recently looked at a 90 C4 coupe and it's vin number was considerably out of range by some 640 or so numbers. I have started a thread on rennlist. Nathan Merz chimed in and agreed that in his database of many cars for some reason 1990 has some oddities that are out of sequence and above what we know to be the final vin number. Still trying to figure out how and why this occurred and what the impact on numbers are. Although he and I and others I know have rarely seen anything other than a few out of sequence and with as many cars as we have on file one would expect the sampling would have produced many more. I will try to figure this out although it would appear that like the later cars had vin's changed from one MY to the next via code 718 prior to this they added a few cars into the mix before this process was established. I must assume these cars were slated for ROW delivery but they fit a few US orders in and through them into the mix using the ROW vin sequence.

If this is the case it could mean there are more or it could just mean that they transferred from the ROW market to the US. I guess it will be awhile before this is figured out.

If only Porsche would release more info about actual production numbers of these cars it would be so helpful. I did do a complete run of all vins for the RSA and US spec 3.6T and 3.3T and they all appeared to be within sequence so far this only seems to apply to 90 MY 964's and it would appear only a few of these oddities exist. So far nobody has posted another 90 coupes out of sequence which I would have expected more if they did exist.