964 turbo kit

[advantagedent]

is there such a thing or just that 1 company with the supercharger

[Black_Hat]

Item number: 330347695127

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-RUF-RCT-Turbo-3-6L-Turbocharger-Engine-Kit_W0QQitemZ330347695127QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors _Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4cea41cc17&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

[Augurean]

I've been looking for one myself but with no luck. The only thing I've found is that TPC supercharge kit you mentioned (TPC Supercharger Kit Porsche 964/993 90-98).

I'd say it's a rule of thumb that if you want a turbo, it's best to just buy one factory (and not use a kit), but 964 turbos seem hard to come by, and are more than double what I paid for mine...

That being said, if anybody knows of a kit, I'd be interested to check it out.

[911JC911]

http://www.racperformance.com/images/rac/pdf/964.pdf

Do it, do it right...RUF.

[Augurean]

Has anybody done one of these conversions (RUF or TPC or other)? If so, I'd be interested to hear what your experience was like and if you'd recommend it.

[Foxford]

turbo = need to lower compression = lots of engine work

supercharger = bolt-on = much easier HP upgrade

I think this is why there is a kit for the latter and no easy solution for the former

[dewflex]

Protomotive /Protosport does turbo conversions. Not a "kit", though. Their stage 1 puts you in the 360HP range. Probably best to consider around rebuild time, which I am. If you do a search on them, you will find some info. Customers are very happy with them.

[911st]

TCP used to make a turbo kit for the 3.6. It requires cutting the pistons down for lower compression.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by dewflex

Protomotive /Protosport does turbo conversions. Not a "kit", though. Their stage 1 puts you in the 360HP range. Probably best to consider around rebuild time, which I am. If you do a search on them, you will find some info. Customers are very happy with them.

I use Protosport for all my Pcars. Paul has been trying to get me to add a low pressure turbo system to my C2 track car for a year or so. Maybe next year. I have seen them do many 964 and 993's and they hold up quite well without the lag of the factory turbos but not as much power either. Not sure of cost but they always do A+ work. There is no need to lower compression if you go with their low pressure system. No different than running a low pressure supercharger. Figure you gain around 100BHP my car currently runs 290bhp and 280 torque with just some exhaust work done by protosport so 360bhp is easily obtainable with stock compression although torque will increase significantly.

[911st]

Any idea how Proto runs the plumbing or our how much boost on there low pressure C2 system?

Seems with the twin plug dist the lay out has to be different from a 930's

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by 911st

Any idea how Proto runs the plumbing or our how much boost on there low pressure C2 system?

Seems with the twin plug dist the lay out has to be different from a 930's

Sorry I haven't gotten into the details with him since I haven't decided to do anything yet. Right now one turbo is enough for me. Too bad i didn't know you asked this earlier, I was at his shop a few hours back I could have asked him.

You could call him directly and discuss it with him 973-839-5353

[911st]

RUF

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by 911st

RUF

I would have expected a bit more exhaust mods. With the turbo so far down the line the turbo must be either rather small or the lag must be tremendous. Any idea of the power curve on this setup?

Looks as though they are using a stock or slightly modified version of the 964 turbo IC.

[911st]

Never driven one so not sure.

However, he keep the compression about 8.5/1, it is a 3.6, twin plug, and has shorter N/A gears.

On top of that it is EFI convereted to MAF with a TPS and at about 380 RUF conservatively rated HP it probably gets up.

His exhaust is about a foot shorter than the 930 euro exhausts and based on the C2 normal headers that has an improved cross over. He also uses less restriction after the turbo. The C2 headers are not the best of Porsche's work but better than any stock single turbo header system.

Thus, it is probably a lot more responsive than a 94T with its CIS metering system and 7.5/1 CR.

I think there is a wright up on the web about a RS America being converted to the same set up and it drove mostly like a N/A motor but with a lot more HP.

There is an EVO version at about 420hp that dose use a bigger turbo and I think might use the 993 HE's.

RUF is about the only aftermarket company that has direct access to KKK for turbos and he knows his stuff thus it should be a great fit.

There is a picture of the C2 Turbo conversion kit in Bruce Anderson's book on modifying Porsches. At least there is in the 2nd ed.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by 911st

Never driven one so not sure.

However, he keep the compression about 8.5/1, it is a 3.6, twin plug, and has shorter N/A gears.

On top of that it is EFI convereted to MAF with a TPS and at about 380 RUF conservatively rated HP it probably gets up.

His exhaust is about a foot shorter than the 930 euro exhausts and based on the C2 normal headers that has an improved cross over. He also uses less restriction after the turbo. The C2 headers are not the best of Porsche's work but better than any stock single turbo header system.

Thus, it is probably a lot more responsive than a 94T with its CIS metering system and 7.5/1 CR.

I think there is a wright up on the web about a RS America being converted to the same set up and it drove mostly like a N/A motor but with a lot more HP.

There is an EVO version at about 420hp that dose use a bigger turbo and I think might use the 993 HE's.

RUF is about the only aftermarket company that has direct access to KKK for turbos and he knows his stuff thus it should be a great fit.

There is a picture of the C2 Turbo conversion kit in Bruce Anderson's book on modifying Porsches. At least there is in the 2nd ed.

Agreed on most of these points.


However, I would not consider doing a turbo conversion on a C2 using the stock exhaust and I m surprised Ruf did. The other upgrades might have achieved improved results but it is a bit after the fact when the problem could be resolved differently.

My turbo gained a large performance edge by switching to headers and eliminating restrictions after the turbo. Of course the HF K27 really helped control the on/off control of the turbo. Lag is nearly eliminated and although not quite 996TT smooth damn near close. It also dropped 0-60 times by a full second. The excessive lag of the 930 was due mostly in part to the exhaust system design. Although Porsche claimed they eliminated the lag on the 964 T the 3.3l was not that much better than the 930 and the 964 turbo 3.6 was an improvement over the 3.3l due to the added displacement and initial low end power generated by the larger motor but it still stumbled horribly off the line. I would think if your going to spend that much $$ to convert a C2 to a turbo your first point of improvement would be custom headers to reduce the distance from exhaust ports to turbo. Even a B&B or GHL, Fabspeed should bolt up and be a big improvement over the factory system.

Just seems to make more sense to start with headers first. It saves weight and reduces lag and restriction.

[911st]

Agreed.

RUF has never done much with custom headers. He usually works with the factory stuff. Probably to maintain OEM heat and quality.

The exception being a couple purpose built race cars and the clean slate twin turbo Yellow Bird.

I think he did offer the EVO option for the earlier C2's that used the 993 HE's which are a major improvement and some believe is responsible for most of the HP difference between the C2 & 993 (250 v 285?) normally aspirated cars. With the bigger turbo it added about 45hp.

Except for a clean slate equal length system the 993's with a custom Y pipe is probably one of the best single turbo with heat set ups possible for single turbo air cooled. It is not fun having to have your shorty pipes rewelded for cracks at the Y. Only to later have a piece of metal brake off and chew up a turbo. Been there done that.

Having said that others have gotten 500-600hp out of the late 930 headers and the C2 normals are larger and an improvement thought the have a bit more volume.

The C2 Turbos had a combo cat/muffler and a second muffler after the turbo. The RUF looks to only have a combo sport cat w minimal muffler. His systems were geared to meeting emissions just like an OEM Mfg. I am sure he probably had to give up something doing this but it was probably minimized to be the best comprise system possible.

It is hard to argue with anything RUF dose. He is really the only aftermarket tuner who's parts or conversion add value to a Porsche. For the most part any other's mods typically reduces the value under that of a clean OEM car.

I had a 91C2 Turbo with $50k in mods with only 55k miles and it was hard to get the same price as a stock turbo after 6 months of trying when I finely sold it.

Bottom line, the C2 normal exhaust dose not scare me. Not the best of the best but not really very bad. Just being EFI makes a big differance in lag.

[Raceboy]

There's nothing wrong with 964 headers and there's nothing wrong with the distance from the exhaust valve to turbo with stock headers. Have you seen 944 Turbo that has a pipe going around the engine to the turbo? Or (pardon my french) some manufacturers rear mounted turbos?

Most important aspects of turbocharging 964/993 NA engines is to reduce CR and having a way to control fuel/spark. Boost treshold and lag are directly dependant on tune if other things (correctly sized turbine, intake system etc) are chosen well.

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Raceboy

There's nothing wrong with 964 headers and there's nothing wrong with the distance from the exhaust valve to turbo with stock headers. Have you seen 944 Turbo that has a pipe going around the engine to the turbo? Or (pardon my french) some manufacturers rear mounted turbos?

Most important aspects of turbocharging 964/993 NA engines is to reduce CR and having a way to control fuel/spark. Boost treshold and lag are directly dependant on tune if other things (correctly sized turbine, intake system etc) are chosen well.

Maybe, but rear mounted turbos and the 944's with higher boost using the long path have tremendous off line turbo lag. Eliminating the distance in the stock 964 turbo system by switching to the B&B system (not the best but better) reduced spool up time by nearly 1000 rpms which is considerable. The biggest improvement of course came by reducing the back pressure in the system. The 400 cell cats are ridiculously restrictive. When a 0-60 in 4.5 second stock car can be beaten off the line without dumping the clutch by a Honda Civic from 0-20mph that is IMO a design flaw. It is a combination of too long and unbalanced manifolds in conjunction with too much back pressure. Fixing these problems eliminates 90% + of the issue the rest is CIS which was fine for the 70's.

For track use these systems are fine since your always up in the revs, but for street use I find you need to make some changes. Low boost does not require reduction in CR. I have seen dozens of low boost systems installed on carrera, 964 and 993 track cars without changing the CR and these engines live a typical track life boosted or not. Many engines having 60K and more track miles without signs of any issues.

The 964 turbo LM got around a laggy turbo by using the air-pump to keep the turbo spooling even at idle. If you fall below 4000 rpms in a stock 964 turbo on the track you can loose a lot of time in places like the boot at WG or similar turns. So having full boost at 3000 rpms can make all the difference and you can't achieve that with the stock exhaust. Of course changed gearing can always help but that is pricier than doing exhaust work.

[911st]

Nice thing about the 3.6 is it has more displacement and twin plugs that helps off boost HP.

One can also keep compression in the 8 to 8.5/1 range and pick up an advantage over a 7/1 930. Add to that the much better gears that put one in boost quicker off the line...

It would be nice to have a set of short /low volume headers but a low restriction section after the turbo is a must.

As to ignition. The 964 operates at 11.2/1 compression which is higher than a 930 on boost (apx 10.2). Thus, if we run 8/1 CR and .7 boost we are operating at a compression rate less than stock. Add to that the 3.6's knock sensing and the spark side might be just fine.

As to the fuel side one might get away with the stock system using a rising rate fuel pressure reg and fine tuning things by playing with the AFM's spring pressure.

One might try bigger injectors and playing with the AFM spring if running say 9/1 CR with .5 bar boost.

If that is not successful, I would ask 911chips.com to burn a new chip or contact Protomotive about a chip or there vacuum sensing conversion that gets rid of the AFM and adds a TPS & MAP sensor.

One could keep the Motronic's for the ignition and add a simple EFI system for the fuel side.

There is also the Unichip piggy back computer system that allows one to intercept and modify the stock ECU's in and outputs.

Fun stuff.

[911st]

PS: with a short wast gate circuit like on the RUF conversion I suspect the volume of a B&B and such a conversion is probably with in 15%.

I am starting to suspec that part of the issue with the late 930 headers is the cross over and the long 2" tube that has the same cross section as the turbo's T3 sized flange.

The C2 HE' improve the cross over. Not sure about what size the final tube size is.

What would be cool would be to put an easy to mount, light weight, Tial SS GT35 on it.

The Tial uses a 2 1/8's tube. I wonder what size the C2's single tube size is.