Track Car Recommendations

[rich22]

You have to decide where you want to end up before you can decide how you want to start out. You don't jump on the freeway until you know what the destination is. If you're going to end up in POC or PCA club racing in a 911 it doesn't make sense to start out tracking a 944. If what you want is close, competitive, relatively low cost racing, spec 944 or 944 cup or whatever it's called on the east coast is where you want to be. They're about as fast as a spec Miata and usually dice with them in the same race groups back east, along with the spec e30's. If you're a Porsche guy I don't know why you'd want to race spec Miata when the spec 944's are about the same cost. Spec Miata guys are fond of bragging about how cheap motors are to replace when they blow up. OTOH if you keep a healthy timing belt in the 944 and change that one rod bearing every once in awhile, they don't blow up.

[sweet97m3]

After mulling over the 911 vs. 944/951 issue a budget reality stares me in the face....I hate that. As others have done before me I think I am going to dip my toe in the DE/Autocross world via my current 911 Cab vs. trying to find a second P-car. Understanding that to be even semi-serious about this a rollcage is a must, does anyone have a recommendation for a cage that is removable (bolt-in) yet sound enough to do the job? Not sure I really want the cage in other than for track events. Thanks for any replies!

Steve

[North Coast Cab]

Steve,
Das Sport makes the best pure bolt-in which requires no drilling and can be installed or removed in 1/2 hour. They run $800-900 verus $300+ for a standard bolt-in.
I run my cab with NASA HPDE and PCA DE's and find it very enjoyable. You can invest and enhance the performance just like any 911, though I wouldn't intent for it to be a full on race car. I've got 22/30 t-bars, Bilstein Sports, triangulated strut brace, and some chassis stiffining bars along the door sills. I'm as fast as any similarly equipped 911.
944/951's are nice fun competitive cars, but they just don't do it for me. Some day I'll strip the aftermarket stuff, turn the cab back into a weekender and buy a real track car. Racing is an extremely expensive proposition and right now it's not for me. Good luck.

John

[Jack Olsen]

There is no cage (that I know of) that requires no drilling or welding, even if it is a 'bolt-in.' But I think you both might mean a roll bar. That's a different animal, and -- especially with a Cab -- can be taken out between track days without too much trouble.

[sweet97m3]

Thanks guys, I did mean a roll bar vs. cage. I am looking at the DAS model they market for the cab specifically, looks like exactly what I need. I also note that this install was described in a pelicanparts tech article. Seems like a fairly straightforward procedure and easily accomplished. Think I have a plan now.

[Plavan]

To add my 2 cents. I would go for a 944. The 944 spec series looks like a blast. As with ANY Porsche you need to keep up on preventive maintance to keep the big $$$$ problems from happening. The cost of a 2.5L vintage race motor is well more than the cost of a whole 944 today. Having owned a 951 and 944 in the past, I do not think the it will cost more that a 911 to race. The few things that can go bad are the water pumps and front A-arms, Timing Belt. Sure, some tranny problems can happen (911's too) but you can find a ton of 944's at the junk yard (do not go to Parts Heaven). The 951 would cost a bit more however. The 951 is still my favorite "Bang for the Buck".
Look for a 944 already completed for the series. I have seen them for the $10k to $15k range ready to race.

[nostatic]

The POC 944 spec series cars are $16K. Turn key. For the whole thing. Great value, and they run down to about 1:36 at Big Willow.

[Grantsfo]

Somone has to say it guys. Real race cars are mid engined. But if you want to belong to NARRC (Not A Real Race Car ) club go for a 944 or 911.

[gustav]

Originally posted by Grantsfo
Somone has to say it guys. Real race cars are mid engined. But if you want to belong to NARRC (Not A Real Race Car ) club go for a 944 or 911.

I got a 914 for a track car too. . . Paid 1k on ebay for it, and started working on it two months ago... Just about done. I didn't buy it JUST because it's better balanced... I bought mine cause if I wrecked my 911 I would be very hurt. But if I wrecked a 914, eh who cares... It's just a 914.

I do think these cars are a great value if you have the time to put into them, and with the appropriate mods seem quite competent.

[sweet97m3]

Interesting tack this has taken. I must admit that I didn't think much about a 914 until your mentions. I assume the 6 cylinder is the way to go with a 914 or will the 4 work?

Steve

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Definitely an "open question" on that. The -four can work, but will generally be very stressed by running on the track. You wind up having to do a lot of work to keep the motor together under sustained high-RPM and high-load situations, like driving on the track. The Six has far fewer issues with that, and they're all quite well understood by the 911 guys who have been making the engines live at the track for decades.

The four-cylinder motors tend to be less expensive (until you start really "building" one--then hang onto your wallet!) and they are definitely lighter. But I have the feeling that the 914-6 will wind up cheaper to run in the long term...

--DD

[gustav]

Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts
The -four can work, but will generally be very stressed by running on the track. You wind up having to do a lot of work to keep the motor together under sustained high-RPM and high-load situations, like driving on the track.

But what is your feeling on "built" 4's? It seems that, for example, the RAT engines with better cooling, nickies, external oil cooling etc etc should be able to do the job reliably, no?

Of course there are always other 914 options, though frowned upon.. Like the wrx swap, and v8 conversions.

[JRMock]

To Steve:

Looks like you live somewhere in VA.

The 944Cup Mid-Atlantic and 944Cup - Southeast are VERY active in your area.

Check them both out at www.44cup.com

They even have classified, with several turn key cars ready to go.

good luck,
JM

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Originally posted by gustav
But what is your feeling on "built" 4's? It seems that, for example, the RAT engines with better cooling, nickies, external oil cooling etc etc should be able to do the job reliably, no?

Should be able to, yes. I don't know for a fact how they hold up in DE/track day use. Then again, the claimed longevity for a street version of that motor is "only" in the ~75K mile range before the heads need freshening. To me, that says the track version will likely need service/freshening before an equivalently-built six-cylinder motor will. But that is only a WAG on my part.

For more info, you can contact Raby and have him put you in touch with a couple of his racing customers. I can think of two that I've heard of off-hand, but both were in the "maximum performance" classes where the really competitive engines are built right out on the ragged edge... Chris from Tangerine Racing (http://www.tangerineracing.com) has used at least one Raby motor--but the one I know of had fuel problems and ran lean; bad news.

The price for building a totally-custom-built engine like that certainly rivals that of a slightly hotter than stock 911 engine.

Of course there are always other 914 options, though frowned upon.. Like the wrx swap, and v8 conversions.

Most of those won't let you get on track with quite a few of the different clubs... Or will put you into the "cubic dollar" classes.

--DD

[911teo]

Drop a 60k 3.2 in a 914.
$2k for a beat up 914
$4k for a 3.2 engine
$2.5k for susp mods
$1.5k for wheels and tires
$1.5k for cage/seat/harness
$1.5k for nice exhaust
$.8 for additional cooling
Tot $14k

the face of the GT3 owners when u pass them on the track...?
PRICELESS


If I had to do it again from the start I would get a 914...

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

$14K is very optimistic as the price of a 3.2 conversion... The engine tin, engine mounts, oil cooler mods, and oil tank/lines/filler/etc. will set you back a pretty good-sized chunk of change, unless you go really heavily into the DIY arena a la Dan Groot over on the 914club board.

--DD

[eimkeith]

right, like 50K optimistic, perhaps ;^)

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Only if you expect to drive the car in to the shop and drive it out again in six weeks... If you DIY most of the conversion, add another $5K to Teo's total, above. If you make that budget, you're a good bargain hunter!!

BTW, I do know people who have done 2.0 911T swaps (e.g., the original 914-6 motor) of varying degrees for $5K out the door, but they were very very good parts swappers and wheeler-dealers, or had figured out very low-cost DIY options (think: "ugly but effective") for a lot of the expensive parts.

--DD

[eimkeith]

or ten weeks, rather. (but the accuracy of the statement is there)

[sweet97m3]

Ok...so let me get this straight, a prepped 914-6 is going to run in the neighborhhod of $18-20k? Back to the 911 then I think. Actually, back to the $700 roll bar for the one I already own!

Thanks for the different tack though, sounds like you fellas have your won debate going on along this line!

Steve