Race Car: Build or Purchase

[Kroggers]

I recently decided that I have lived the "want to be racer" dream long enough. My initial plan (many years back) was that my 911 would eventually be my race car, but plans have changed and I am now considering other options.

I did find a 911 tub recently that I was going to build into a race car, but as can be seen in this thread it turned out to not be such a good deal after all! But a good thing to come from this was that I decided to investigate the options of running with a 944, as they are cheaper to purchase and run than a 911...

I want to do this properly, and have a good eye on the costs - rather than how my 911 has evolved (I do nto even want to look at all the invoices for that car ).

So what is a better starting point - purchase a good running car, strip it and get the cage welded in etc. or finding a car that is already prepared and has been used for racing to start with.

I am not looking for the option that will get me racing fastest, but the option that will cost me the least and get me the best car for the lowest cost. As I have never built a true track car, I do not know the actual costs involved

as some examples (and sorry the text is in Swedish - if you use Google translator it will make sense), here are some comparisons that I have been looking at.

Ready to run 944 racing cars:
Porsche 944 Tävlingsbil | Örebro | Blocket
Porsche 944 långloppsbil | Skåne | Blocket

Nice used 944 to convert:
Porsche 944 | Stockholm | Blocket
Porsche 944 (blickfång) | Örebro | Blocket
Porsche 944 coupe | Dalarna | Blocket

[winders]

There are no easy answers to this question other than you can usually buy an already built race car for less than it would cost to build that car again. Sometimes for quite a bit less.

So, if you goal is to get into racing as cheaply as possible, you want to buy a race car that is already built. The cheap way isn't usually the best way. That other thread you started had some good information regarding the problems with buying someone else's race car.

You seem to be a 911 guy. Are you sure you would be happy with a 944 race car?

Scott

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by winders

You seem to be a 911 guy. Are you sure you would be happy with a 944 race car?

Scott

Thank you for the comments Scott. I can understand that purchasing a ready car can be cheaper but possibly not the best option. maybe it is the best option as a starting point? I will have to do as Ed recommended in the other thread and do some calculations - time to play with a spreadsheet...

Yes, I am a 911 guy, but I also have a 924 and my first Porsche was a 944. I like them all It would be nice to have a 911 racing car. But based on my not-educated understanding, it is cheaper to run a 944 racing car, and they are easier to drive on a racing track. Both of these are good for me as a beginner...

If I ever get good enough and can justify the extra cost, then maybe I could upgrade into a 911 racing car.

At the moment I am just looking for the cheapest option to get onto the track. Along with the car I also have to get all the other stuff - so it would be nice if the car was not to expensive

[Flieger]

If you want to go racing, buy someone else's sorted race car. If you want the fun of building and learning the car as you learn to drive it and race it, then buy a street car that you can modify for racing as budget allows. They you at least have another street 911 for your wife to drive when she gets concerned about all the $$$$ you are spending.

[Kroggers]

Nice thinking Max, but my wife has no interest in cars, and to her a Porsche 911 is just a fast car that is hard to drive - she wants modern and easy to park

And as i have already stated, i think I will start with a 944 (I hope an S2), as it will be cheaper than a 911, and give me a reason to get better educated into the 944 (and water cooled) world

[Plavan]

Originally Posted by Flieger

If you want to go racing, buy someone else's sorted race car. If you want the fun of building and learning the car as you learn to drive it and race it, then buy a street car that you can modify for racing as budget allows. They you at least have another street 911 for your wife to drive when she gets concerned about all the $$$$ you are spending.

A BIG +1

Been there, done that a few times- Cheaper to buy one already done, then sort through it.

However, building it comes with it's own rewards also.

[Mahler9th]

Hey there. It is is really hard to say what makes sense because there are so many variables. One is your geographical location. That is a big deal. If you lived here in the US, then that would make a difference. Moreover, if you lived for example in NorCal... that would make a difference. What kinds of cars are available within reasonable proximity of where you live?

I started with my first Porsche in 1987... a 944. I did my first DE in the car within the first year. The car was stock and I did not do any AX or karting before my first DE event. Within a period of 5-6 years I added a 944 turbo S to the mix. Within a couple of years after that, the 944 was sold, the first turbo S was totaled (at Laguna), and a second 944 turbo s (pristine street car) was acquired. And I bought an '87 944 turbo from an ex-Indy car driver. That car was first converted to turbo S specs, and then more and more and more changes...

I got a lot of help and advice and a few products from people with pro racing experience with these cars, like Jon Milledge and David and Jeff Stone at Kelly Moss. By the time i was "done," it had a cage, a custom engine (put together in my garage-- described in a couple of articles in Excellence), and a racing suspension. And giant brakes. And a highly modified oiling system. And, and and. But despite about 360 bhp and big giant tires, I kept it legal for the street and it weighed 3000 pounds. I decided to stop there as I knew that it would be more valuable as a street hot rod than as the start of a race car. So I am thoroughly familiar with the 944 family as race cars. I have carefully studied factory variants as well... Firehawk and Rothman's Turbo Cup, and even 924 GT S/P and 944 GTR. And lots of one offs.

I had a chance to buy a factory racing chassis, and considered lots of other approaches toward developing a 944 family race car, but I decided to sell my 951 and bought my current 911. Much easier to work on. Yada, yada, yada.

There are just too many variables to say what may make sense for you. How many years are you committed? What other types of Porsches would you be driving with and racing against? How fast do you want to go (relatively)? How much of your own work do you want to do (development, maintenance, "tinkering," et cetera)? How much "budget" over time do you want to devote? The list goes on and on.

Yeah in general it makes sense to buy as opposed to build... but there are too many variables to give blanket advice. One of my friends has just gone through this debate (he has posted on this thread). He has access to a person that will build a competitive car for the class of racing he has chosen for less than the cost of buying a freshly built (with spare no expenses approach) car that is locally available. In fact, he is headed to see the builder as I type. So his situation is unique to him because of where we live. And he chose the class after visiting a few events and checking things out. But he has never turned a wheel racing a car (he had one DE many years ago). So he is starting from ground zero and having a car built instead of buying.

[Kroggers]

Yes Mike, over here we do not have as many Porsche cars as you do to convert so the costs are higher

Personally I think it would be fun to get a good 944S2 and convert it to a racing car. But I will have to do some calculations to see how much more that will cost compared to purchasing a car that is already converted and has been raced successfully...

[Dantilla]

Originally Posted by winders

You seem to be a 911 guy. Are you sure you would be happy with a 944 race car?

I have a 911, but race a 944. After all the time, effort, and money I have in the 911, I don't want to risk banging fenders on the track. The 944 is..... Just a 944. If I do something dumb, and roll it up into a ball, I can just swap all the "go fast" bits into another cheap 944 and return to the track.

If I wrecked the 911, I'd be over in the corner, fetal position, sucking my thumb, contemplating suicide.

If I wreck the 944, I'd be doing a fist pump, yelling "That was fun!"

Also nice- There are a few 944 guys to race with here, and more joining the fun. All the cars are pretty equally prepped, so it's all about the driving.

[Kroggers]

Dantilla, we are in the same boat buddy - I feel the same way about my 911...

[winders]

Pål,

I understand...my affection for the 911 runs deep. The 944 is pretty much just another car to me. Okay, one notch above. So when it came to building a race car, a 911 was the only possible choice.

Scott

[Kroggers]

As I have already said Scott, it would be really nice to have a 911 racing car - but I can not justify the cost for that. So a 944 racing car it will be...

I did some (bad) calculations last night, and I was ending up with the cost between build and purchase to be the same. My justification was that if I purchase one that is already a racing car, it will probably need some work and upgrades that will cost.

If I get a nice road car that has been mechanically looked after, I can recover some money by striping it out and putting all the "comfort" parts up for sale.

A ready 944 racing car in good condition over here will cost me close to 80000SKr. A good 944 road car will cost me maybe 30000SKr. Then all the work to get it track ready will put me in the 80000SKr point + I will know the car much better.

Again, I could be very wrong (I have been know to be at times), but it looks like build is the best option at the moment

[Samujr]

I'm not racer but I'm local and have some understanding what you are planning. I think it's much better for you to start with 944 if you want to wheel to wheel racing here in Finland. I have followed past two years Porsche Club racing here and mostly real battle on local club races is in class 8a. That's for min 6,5kg/hv. Typically light weight 944 and cars are quite equal. From this list you can see that there were not many cars running this year:
Tulokset 2010 - Tulokset - Porsche Racing Club Finland

You could consider endurance saloon racing too. That's more popular and you could use same 944 there. Most of the cars are BMWs so it would be nice to have one more Porsche.

I think rules in Finland and Sweden are pretty much same. So you just need to carefully check that your car will fit to rules. I bet what ever you want, you will end up buying it from Sweden. Track ready car you could try to negotiate prices now as it's autumn. You could make good deal. Just remember that it might be bit tricky to get MOT (plates) for highly modified car here in Finland. It might be better to consider trailer too.

There is PRCF annual meeting next Saturday. Same place we have PCF little Xmas party I will be there for sure. If you want to get fresh update and contact names send me email.

On you previous 911 thread there was discussion on track chassis prices. When you import car from US to Finland you have to pay 10% customs and 23% VAT on full price (chassis+freight+paper work). So $3000 will be something close to $7000 ((3000+2000)x1.1x1.23) here. With current exchange rate it's still good option.

[dad911]

I've raced 944, 911, and now have built a spec boxster. I would base the decision on the class rules for the group you want to race with.

Personally, my decision to move away from 944 was based on how hard they are to work on. Dropping an engine, clutch, etc is much more labor intensive.

[Kroggers]

Thank you for the good info and link Samu. I have been looking closely at the Porsche Racing Club Finland site and with help from my wife (she is Finnish and I do not know the language yet!) been trying to compare the regulations etc against the ones from Porsche Club Racing Sweden - and as far as we can see they are the same.

I have already decide that I will get a 944, as it is a lot cheaper to maintain and race than a 911. And as i have said, I want to get a better understanding of the 944 cars than I have today.

What ever option I take (purchase already prepared or not), it will be from Sweden. There is more option and I know the language fluently - easier to negotiate and get the details on a car I am considering.

At the moment I am leaning towards getting a normal street car, importing it to Finland and then preparing it for racing. The car is cheaper that way, i get the racing car I want and it is easier to import to Finland.

The only problem I will have with this is that I know how to get a racing car registration paper from the Swedish SBF, but have no idea how to do this in Finland - but I am sure I will figure it all out.

First step is to get the move from Stockholm to Helsinki all done, and a good garage found. Then i can start looking for the car and initiate the conversion

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by dad911

I've raced 944, 911, and now have built a spec boxster. I would base the decision on the class rules for the group you want to race with.

Personally, my decision to move away from 944 was based on how hard they are to work on. Dropping an engine, clutch, etc is much more labor intensive.

I would love to race with a 911 or boxster - but that is to much cash for me
I want to start with a cheap platform, and if things go good and I maybe can get some sponsorship deals - then I can consider a 911 or boxster -> Chuck, you listening

[333pg333]

Just remember, to race you have to be able and prepared to total the car. If you can't afford that then don't start. Also, depending on what sort of racing you have up there you might consider these newer TimeAttack type events. There are very highly prepared cars running incredible times and you do share the track with other cars. You can pass or be passed, but it's not true door to door racing in the purest form. The chance of bashing or crashing (and getting injured) is a LOT less yet you are still driving flat out and in a competitive competition. We recently had a big event down here in Sydney, Australia and the winning cars were faster on R spec rubber than the fastest Carrera Cup cars on slicks!!

My current car (modified 944 turbo) is still a street legal car and is as fast as the quickest GT3s and EVOs in our local Porsche Club on similar tyres. The 'problem' with turbo cars is a duel edged sword. They are incredibly addictive and there is always another mod that means you can increase power...but along with that ability comes heat, cost, reliability etc. So if you use the 944 or S2 as your base car you will never be able to go crazy with the power mods as there really isn't a whole lot you can do, so you will have to concentrate on suspension and driving to make you faster. Plus they are more reliable than the turbo cars in general. As far as working on them vs a 911, in many cases they are in fact much easier than a rear engined Porsche. My mechanic can do a headgasket in 2-3 hours by himself for example. Try that on a 911!!

[Kroggers]

Originally Posted by 333pg333

Just remember, to race you have to be able and prepared to total the car. If you can't afford that then don't start.

That is exactly why I am looking to get a 944 car to race rather than use my 911
I would use the 924, but the engine is to small for Porsche Cup + the cost and work required to put a 944 engine into the early 924 is just as high as getting a 944 to start with...

[pmason]

Just went thought this, after working all the numbers, my time, etc buying is the answer. I sunk a ton of money in my 84 911, while its pretty close to race ready I bought a well prepared 968 E class car its a lot cheaper and its ready to go. I bought the car in Aug. ran it the rest of the year at DE events, the plan is to go racing next year.
And its a lot easier to drive than the 911. Keeping the 911 I've owned it sense 88, part of the family now.

[Kroggers]

Based on your comments pmason, it would look like purchase a ready race car is better - and that is what a lot of my calculations were pointing to. The only thing that I am worried about is the risk with warn parts on an already prepared and used racing car - this is hard to calculate for. But if you consider that you purchase a road car and put "go fast" parts on, it is easier to estimate the costs...

Here in Scandinavia, I can get a good road going 944 S2 or turbo for the cost of a fully prepared and used early 944 racing car - so in many ways getting a newer faster road car and converting would (on paper) look like the better option. It just does not get me into the seat on on the track as fast