Trying to buy a porsche 964, help with value please

[Marine Blue]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

The 964 coupe and targa are quite rare compared to the other air cooled 911's. All the info published is incorrect as everyone counted 60 cars too many per vin number MY etc for both US & ROW cars. Porsche clarified that in their classics book I believe second volume.

That makes roughly 5170 US spec coupes both C2/C4 tip and manual made and far less targas. These were the ugly duckling for a long time and so many were used and abused, crashed and parted out. Very few remain and finding a car without stories is not so easy and these are becoming pricey to maintain.

Singers are way overpriced for what they offer. It is all about the status with them and a well setup and modified 964 can easily give you the fun without the fluff for a fraction of the cost. Good luck finding them for less than MSRP unless you like a project.

Originally Posted by alexl911

I agree with everything you said but at the same time the it makes no sense that 964's are valued higher than an equally specc'd and similar condition 993. 993's have all the same attributes AND were improved in all the right areas. Other than styling, which is highly subjective, no one can argue that one or the other is better looking, therefore I believe that 964's will (and should) drop just as 993's did. Note, this applies to 'driver' level cars and not to ultra low mileage or special editions.

As noted by Trader220, supply and demand plays a big role in the current 964/993 price disparity. 993’s were coveted immediately after they were introduced and for the most part a large majority were well cared for and not used as daily drivers so there are far more nice 993’s available for sale. 964’s were the red headed step child with reasons noted below, not exactly vetted when they were introduced so many were abused, destroyed, heavily modified and thus a low production runs combined with this past has resulted in very little good supply.

Originally Posted by SalParadise

As I said many times before the 964 was a test bed mule that was never, ever fully developed because: 1) The entire world economy had tanked, 2) Porsche was in very dire financial straits that they sold so few cars in the USA that they actually considered pulling out of the US altogether, and 3) The amount of new DOT/EPA requirements heaped on such a small company as Porsche was too much.

The Carrera 4 is somewhat an icon, but as you know they were in the "Where are they now?" territory as recent as 2012. Any 964 was and is rare because the early motors made the 2.7 engine look reliable. The first 1989 Carrera 4 I drove had less than a couple hundred on it and it was being returned to the dealer with oil leaks.

When I first visited the factory in December of 1992 it was such a sullen place that the workers on the lines were very, very tired and quite cranky. The guy I met at the factory was actually much more excited about the Mercedes Benz 500E that they were building and was launched for only one year when I got there, and that the same 500E was built in the same hall as the 959. They were very excited about this. They were as excited about building the 964 as the 944 it seemed.

With that said, I was never a 964 fan, and I cannot understand it having driven several. If they were reasonable, maybe I'd get a Carrera 4. But at the end of the day there are far better options than any 964 (think 993) that I can think of in a minute.

What you bring up is likely the primary reasons that the 964 was unloved. The first couple of years of production was generally still being developed and issues resolved. By late 1991 Porsche seemed to get a handle on the issues and subsequent cars were much improved. Having said that I think what has changed since then is that any remaining cars have had the leaking and other issues resolved. More importantly when you combine the 964 with more modern dampers and spring technology the result is a very cohesive and incredibly fun/involving car to drive. This combined with the old school feel of the 964 makes it attractive to some buyers as compared to the 993.

It really comes down to preference, performance is irrelevant as all modern Porsches are better choices.

[trader220]

Let me help you a bit

Originally Posted by Marine Blue

It really comes down to preference, performance is irrelevant as most modern sporty cars are better choices.

No one is bragging about the 245 hp in a 964 or the 280hp in a 993. The 2019 Honda accord makes over 250, I believe there is a Civic model that makes closer to 280.

The 993 by the numbers is a better car than the 964. I have owned many examples of both. I just happen to prefer the 964. Would I like another one? Sure. Am I willing to pay the current market price? Probably not. I am more inclined to buy a $55k 993 than a $55k 964 only because the 993 will be lower miles and in better condition.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

As I said many times before the 964 was a test bed mule that was never, ever fully developed because: 1) The entire world economy had tanked, 2) Porsche was in very dire financial straits that they sold so few cars in the USA that they actually considered pulling out of the US altogether, and 3) The amount of new DOT/EPA requirements heaped on such a small company as Porsche was too much.

The Carrera 4 is somewhat an icon, but as you know they were in the "Where are they now?" territory as recent as 2012. Any 964 was and is rare because the early motors made the 2.7 engine look reliable. The first 1989 Carrera 4 I drove had less than a couple hundred on it and it was being returned to the dealer with oil leaks.

When I first visited the factory in December of 1992 it was such a sullen place that the workers on the lines were very, very tired and quite cranky. The guy I met at the factory was actually much more excited about the Mercedes Benz 500E that they were building and was launched for only one year when I got there, and that the same 500E was built in the same hall as the 959. They were very excited about this. They were as excited about building the 964 as the 944 it seemed.

With that said, I was never a 964 fan, and I cannot understand it having driven several. If they were reasonable, maybe I'd get a Carrera 4. But at the end of the day there are far better options than any 964 (think 993) that I can think of in a minute.

Their reliability issues is part of the reason it's hard to find good ones now. Low production paired with tons of neglected cars over the years (partially due to high maintenance costs) has really depleted the inventory out there. I don't see the good C2 coupes 5spds going anywhere but up. Tons of enthusiast groups are after them - GT owners, slammed C&C crowd, Singer, hipsters etc.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

Their reliability issues is part of the reason it's hard to find good ones now. Low production paired with tons of neglected cars over the years (partially due to high maintenance costs) has really depleted the inventory out there. I don't see the good C2 coupes 5spds going anywhere but up. Tons of enthusiast groups are after them - GT owners, slammed C&C crowd, Singer, hipsters etc.

While I agree with you given the current market and trend... markets and trends have a funny way of turning quickly.

My Caddy will be worth a fortune someday (LOL)

[Cobalt]

The factory was on the verge of bankruptcy that was true. However they had just spent a fortune redesigning the 911. Nearly 85% of the car was all new.

Porsche even to this day holds back with upgrades so they can constantly show improvement. The 964 was a huge undertaking using their old style hand fitted way of manufacturing and 26 stage paint process. This was a very costly way to build cars.

Value is not always about what performs better and there are many like myself that feel the 993 gave up something the earlier cars had. The 993 is more refined with a lot of little gadgets and was the most extreme cosmetic change to date.

The sullen attitude you might have been seeing was the coming changes to how these cars would be manufactured which upset the workers and was met with resistance.

You can drive many some like what the 964 offers and others the 993. I drove several dozen 993TT's and several 964 turbos in the end for me the 964T 3.6 was just a more engaging drive and offered me a level of excitement the 993TT was lacking. I also just prefer the 964 feel to the 993. The 993 are IMO the pivotal point in Porsche's history the new feel with kinematic suspension vs trailing arm and still retaining an air cooled engine.

Other than the component upgrades the GT2 EVO is the only 993 I would consider owning the 964 offers so much more that the earlier cars I grew up with did and all the modern features I am willing to accept in a sports car.

To each their own although it still doesn't change the fact that it is far easier to find a 993 in nice condition than it does a 964. The limited supplies left will continue to see a rise in value the 993 will hold their own as they always have but can be easily found and values are just staying where they are.

It is always about the numbers that is why the rare RS and other versions of both models can fetch 7 figures plus.

[jwasbury]

I recently shopped a fairly remote corner of the 964 market: track and race cars. I race a G body 911 in PCA and other club racing, and was getting involved in an endurance racing series (American Endurance Racing for those interested). I really wanted to run an air-cooled car in the series, and my own G-Body race car was discussed as a candidate, but my team mates and I agreed it was impractical because the hot rod engine needs 100 octane, and the 915 trans is weak. The AER series is back to back 9 hour races, with practice and qualifying over a 3 day event. We focused on the 964 model because it has the 3.6 engine which is the largest and best air-cooled engine in stock (pump gas friendly) trim, with the G50 gearbox. Factory coil overs and improved bearings all around were bonuses for an endurance racing car, and the trailing arm suspension was viewed as retaining the "old school" feel of a 911. The Multi-link in the 993, while technically superior is also more sensitive and difficult to set up properly. For endurance racing, absolute speed is less important than reliability and the 964 represented the ideal air-cooled 911 variant for the purpose.

We located a track-rat 964 which was ironically bodied as a 993, and now we're racing it.

[pingpong]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

As I said many times before the 964 was a test bed mule that was never, ever fully developed because: 1) The entire world economy had tanked, 2) Porsche was in very dire financial straits that they sold so few cars in the USA that they actually considered pulling out of the US altogether, and 3) The amount of new DOT/EPA requirements heaped on such a small company as Porsche was too much.

The Carrera 4 is somewhat an icon, but as you know they were in the "Where are they now?" territory as recent as 2012. Any 964 was and is rare because the early motors made the 2.7 engine look reliable. The first 1989 Carrera 4 I drove had less than a couple hundred on it and it was being returned to the dealer with oil leaks.

When I first visited the factory in December of 1992 it was such a sullen place that the workers on the lines were very, very tired and quite cranky. The guy I met at the factory was actually much more excited about the Mercedes Benz 500E that they were building and was launched for only one year when I got there, and that the same 500E was built in the same hall as the 959. They were very excited about this. They were as excited about building the 964 as the 944 it seemed.

With that said, I was never a 964 fan, and I cannot understand it having driven several. If they were reasonable, maybe I'd get a Carrera 4. But at the end of the day there are far better options than any 964 (think 993) that I can think of in a minute.

SalParadise, i cant agree more, thanks for your response and the story.

Yes me to like the 964 C4 the best if i wanted a 964 but for the same money i prefer a 993.

[littleoldman]

I had a 993 and drive a 964C4, while I didnt drive them back to back, I do feel the 964 is a bit more agile and a tad quicker. I felt the 993 was porkie. The 964 does have a chip and upgraded suspension and FabSpeed exhaust system which sounds deep and smooth...so its a wonderfully responsive car.

The best car is the one you long for when you open the garage door, walk across a parking lot to get to and drive a country road. You are filled with choices for 964 and 993's. If i had an extra 80K I would buy a 993C2S for my garage.

If I didnt own a 964, I would buy that first...but that is just me.

[littleoldman]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1993-porsche-911-cabriolet-3/

p to $54K - nice color, 18K miles....but a good comparison

[SalParadise]

Originally Posted by littleoldman

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1993-porsche-911-cabriolet-3/

p to $54K - nice color, 18K miles....but a good comparison

Looks like cabs are on the up-and-up.

I believe this auction is has more to do with mileage - anyways it's still a bargain considering this car was probably well into the $70K region when new.

Twenty-five years later at this price is a great deal even though it's not my cup of tea.

[specialtyoneinc]

Originally Posted by SalParadise

Looks like cabs are on the up-and-up.

I believe this auction is has more to do with mileage - anyways it's still a bargain considering this car was probably well into the $70K region when new.

Twenty-five years later at this price is a great deal even though it's not my cup of tea.

That car was pulled due to an issue with the shifter. I was curious where it would end up. I'm guessing well into the $60s due to being a late year model, sought after color and low mileage.

[trader220]

Xxx