Questionable Practices at Bring A Trailer ( BAT )

[rlane930]

BAT bidders are obsessed w/ low mileage Porsches and yet I have never seen anyone post an image of a Speedometer VDO date stamp. So easy to do…many dubious low mileage claims.

[rlane930]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

It wouldn't surprise me if who the seller is is influencing how the BaT boys treat him and his auction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Borcheller

$2000 to remove the interior mildew and exterior detail. They also replaced the fuel gauge ($165), warm-up valve ($1011), fuel distributer ($3202), etc. I know this would not hurt a car in concours but so much for only original once. Where did they get the 930 fuel pump ($447)? I have not been able to find original 930 fuel pumps anywhere in the Porsche parts system?

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by rlane930

BAT bidders are obsessed w/ low mileage Porsches and yet I have never seen anyone post an image of a Speedometer VDO date stamp. So easy to do…many dubious low mileage claims.

This is a common problem in general. I looked at a lot of cars that clearly had the speedo reworked, disconnected or replaced. I know of several that sold not necessarily on BaT that had 100k miles more than the odo reads. Both seller and buyer alike were clueless and relied on the carfax to confirm miles. LOL

Like the black 964C2 that the owner claimed had the speedo repaired only after someone brought up the discrepancy in the paperwork. I have no doubt that was another car with far more miles than represented. He also never supplied documentation for any of the work he claims he was involved with.

It is so easy to be taken by unscrupulous sellers if you don't educate yourself about these cars.

[voitureltd]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

It is so easy to be taken by unscrupulous sellers if you don't educate yourself about these cars.

Conversely, especially buying at auction, a seller may not be not aware of negative aspects and may hold to his price thinking it is worth it, however an unscrupulous seller may sell for less knowing it is not as good as represented thus both can be distorting the value expected for the offer. So yes, research and know what your buying along with a in person look, drive, PPI, records checking is a prefered way to be more certain, if your time permits. BAT is at least getting buyers some good free advice from some savvy commenters.

[1979-930]

Originally Posted by JMS935

It looks like I called that auction and seller right after all, the auction has gone off the rails, just like I suspected...all due to this sport seat issue the seller brought on himself.



The window sticker has just been added to the auction - THERE ARE NO SPORT SEATS ON IT, so my bet was dead right. The handwritten option codes in the service manual are bunk, and definitely written during the auction, but before posting the window sticker. What a mess this seller has made out of something so minor.



I hate to say it, but I couldn’t have been more accurate on this one. It’s unfortunate I called the mountain out of a molehill too, hopefully the seller can still get it sold now after tanking his own auction with his factory optioned sport seats fib.

Ha, Agreed. I knew the original owner kept everything by that flight log book.
Spot on Pilot mentality.

Seller sure effed himself on that one. I bet he has the original seats too.



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[JMS935]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Ha, Agreed. I knew the original owner kept everything by that flight log book.
Spot on Pilot mentality.

Seller sure effed himself on that one. I bet he has the original seats too.



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Who knows what the hell he was thinking. How hard is it to just say the seats were installed by dealer at the time of purchase? It’s not that difficult, nor that harmful to value, if any at all. And this all lead to the missing options sticker, which is actually a much bigger deal for this car. That’s a conundrum for sure with such a low mileage car and an original owner that retained every document possible to go with it. I don’t know how you trust the seller now with whatever explanation he gives for it after this blunder. Regardless of explanation, though, this one will hurt the value.

The irony of it all...there might never have been a request to see the hood option sticker if he just stated the sport seats were not a factory option! This is a perfect example of the saying...you reap what you sow.

[specialtyoneinc]

Very curious where the 88 930 ends up. It's a concourse example, but the seller not being completely transparent will not help this car bring the money it deserves. Pictures of service records and a paint meter readings would definitely help the sale. Right now I would be skeptical if I was a serious buyer. History and official documentation is crucial on these top tier collector examples.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

Very curious where the 88 930 ends up. It's a concourse example, but the seller not being completely transparent will not help this car bring the money it deserves. Pictures of service records and a paint meter readings would definitely help the sale. Right now I would be skeptical if I was a serious buyer. History and official documentation is crucial on these top tier collector examples.

Nice play on words - concourse, since the original owner is a pilot, but I think you meant concours.

Agreed, the missing options stickers are a major problem, especially for a car that comes with a complete set of records. That’ll ding the value for sure, so I wonder if the seller lowers his reserve now after this bump in the road.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

This is a common problem in general. I looked at a lot of cars that clearly had the speedo reworked, disconnected or replaced. I know of several that sold not necessarily on BaT that had 100k miles more than the odo reads. Both seller and buyer alike were clueless and relied on the carfax to confirm miles. LOL
.

How does a odo roll back get past CarFax?
Car fax lists miles every year.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

How does a odo roll back get past CarFax?
Car fax lists miles every year.

Carfax is only compiling mileage (or any other notes) as often as it gets entered into their system. For example, if a car sits for 8 years in a garage, then there won’t be any Carfax notations on it whatsoever during that time period.

[Mike80911]

Originally Posted by 1979-930

Ha, Agreed. I knew the original owner kept everything by that flight log book.
Spot on Pilot mentality.

Seller sure effed himself on that one. I bet he has the original seats too.



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I would imagine there is a possibility that the original purchaser wanted sport seats and had the dealer swap out the seats prior to delivery then the seller would not have the original seats. This would have been the best and most logical answer for the seller to offer. I purchased a new car in 92 from dealer stock that had cloth interior and I wanted leather the dealer changed the entire interior over to leather and that did not appear anywhere on the options codes only on the handwritten bill of sale.

[nathanbs]

Originally Posted by Mike80911

I would imagine there is a possibility that the original purchaser wanted sport seats and had the dealer swap out the seats prior to delivery then the seller would not have the original seats. This would have been the best and most logical answer for the seller to offer. I purchased a new car in 92 from dealer stock that had cloth interior and I wanted leather the dealer changed the entire interior over to leather and that did not appear anywhere on the options codes only on the handwritten bill of sale.

And unfortunately would not be original. Similar to dealers installing slant nose kits. Not quite the same as the factory or Werks 1 doing it

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by nathanbs

And unfortunately would not be original. Similar to dealers installing slant nose kits. Not quite the same as the factory or Werks 1 doing it

Yep. The big difference being its affect on value, the sports seats having not much if any, while a dealer installed slant nose package wrecks the value, as least in comparison to the factory version. As much as this seller claims to know about these cars, you’d think he’d have known that and not gone down this path.

[rlane930]

They should also show the date stamps on the underside of the "dealer installed" sport seats. I'll bet the dates are quite different from the production date of the car. Did dealers back then have spare sports seats sitting around ready to install?

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

How does a odo roll back get past CarFax?
Car fax lists miles every year.

Originally Posted by JMS935

Carfax is only compiling mileage (or any other notes) as often as it gets entered into their system. For example, if a car sits for 8 years in a garage, then there won’t be any Carfax notations on it whatsoever during that time period.

Many states don't record miles during inspection or have inspections at all which would be the source for that info. I have seen switches installed to disconnect electronic speedos and have seen others swap out speedos with a second to use while driving keeping the other on a shelf until needed. It is very easy to crack open the units and roll back and many have broken gears that go for years without racking up miles.

Same goes for accident damage. If it doesn't go through insurance or no police report it is not noted. When the cars weren't worth much many would be repaired by the owner instead of risking the car being totaled and receiving an S title. I have helped take cars down to bare metal that the owner was convinced was original but aged paint only to find multiple spots of bondo and bent panels. It isn't uncommon to find clean carfaxes for cars that are so badly damaged they shouldn't be on the road the damage was that bad. Someone paid someone to fix but didn't have the equipment and got as close as they could but the tubs were all twisted.

Trusting a carfax is a mistake IMO and means little. It is only worth the price if it notes actual damage but how can you be sure unless you know what to look for.

[trader220]

Originally Posted by rlane930

They should also show the date stamps on the underside of the "dealer installed" sport seats. I'll bet the dates are quite different from the production date of the car. Did dealers back then have spare sports seats sitting around ready to install?

Dealers probably didn't have the seats sitting around but they surely could have ordered a set through the pipeline and had them at the dealership ready to put in when the car got their for delivery.

[trader220]

The thing with the mileages on these older Porsches isn't about Carfax. As we all know there is a little plastic gear in the odo that degrades over time and often fails. When you read a carfax and the mileage hasn't changed for years at a time there is a good chance its bogus. If you read the carfax and the miles don't change and the car has its registration continually renewed each year, the chances are the odo broke, the owner didn't have it fixed but kept the car on the road.

[speednme1]

What’s interesting is the Carfax reports 4 owners yet the mileage stayed under 7k miles. I wonder if this car was being traded among car dealers using dealer plates.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by speednme1

What’s interesting is the Carfax reports 4 owners yet the mileage stayed under 7k miles. I wonder if this car was being traded among car dealers using dealer plates.

That wouldn't show up as new owners. Dealers can reassign the title without putting it in their name. In Colorado there are 4 lines for dealer reassignment on the back of a title. I've bought cars that were through 2 dealers without new registration before if got to me.

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by speednme1

What’s interesting is the Carfax reports 4 owners yet the mileage stayed under 7k miles. I wonder if this car was being traded among car dealers using dealer plates.

The Carfax shows 4 owners because there have been 4 owners.

1. Original owner (the pilot).
2. Friend of original owner.
3. Original owner bought it back from friend.
4. Current owner / BaT seller.

This is all listed in the 1st paragraph of the auction.