993s values declining even further?

[black_falcon]

[Vaive]

996 NPC

HAHA I love it. As the great Homer Simpson once said, it's funny cuz it's true!

[Vaive]

The best era of SNL is the one where you were a teenager. Porsches are kinda the same. The best one is the one you own.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Vaive

The best era of SNL is the one where you were a teenager. Porsches are kinda the same. The best one is the one you own.

Nope. Best SNL was when I was a kid. Same with Porsches.

[wayner]

The 993 got us across the 996 hump while we got used to what this water cooled was all about by the time the 997 arrived:-)

[JMS935]

Originally Posted by Vaive

The best era of SNL is the one where you were a teenager. Porsches are kinda the same. The best one is the one you own.

Totally agree with both. Which for me was the glorious excess of the 80’s, the gaudier the 930 the better!

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

It reminded me of my dad's Mitsubishi 3000, it made noise, the gauges moved accordingly, but it felt very refined and sterile. I looked at one and drove it before I got the 993, and I was very underwhelmed. It was a sports car, but it didn't feel like a Porsche, not enough feel I guess. I'm sure you could mod one out and get it to feel like you wanted, but in stock form I was not sold, and didn't buy the car.

There needs to be a certain element of fear when driving a true sports car, somewhere in back of your mind that this might get away from me, with the 996 there was no fear.

---Adam

The 996 GT3 fills your request in spades while in stock form. It feels more alive, communicative, and involving than any of the aircooleds that I've driven and is perfectly willing to scare you as well.

Pushing the needle even further, I'd say that the 996 aerokit look is maturing rather nicely, GT1 headlights and all....

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Alan A

Find a coupe with a stick at that price that doesn’t have a ton of miles.

So, that's a good to excellent specimen which the price will reflect.

Even as a driver I don’t want a tip or a rag top.

The average 993 valuation, even just for the coupes, has been a flat line for 4-5 years.
Not sure where the "sky is falling" gloom of the original post is coming from.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by pmax

So, that's a good to excellent specimen which the price will reflect.



The average 993 valuation, even just for the coupes, has been a flat line for 4-5 years.
Not sure where the "sky is falling" gloom of your original post is coming from.

Ummm... this is Kansas’ thread. Alan never said the sky is falling.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by Tonger

The 996 GT3 fills your request in spades while in stock form. It feels more alive, communicative, and involving than any of the aircooleds that I've driven and is perfectly willing to scare you as well.

Pushing the needle even further, I'd say that the 996 aerokit look is maturing rather nicely, GT1 headlights and all....

I would hope so, seeing that it was the top of the line when it was made. A decent GT3 still commands $75,000-125,000, so you'll stay pay quite a premium for the privilege. Same with the 996 Turbo, I've heard great things about those. Neither of those cars are what I was talking about driving. I drove a bone stock 996 Anniversary Edition and it was not very exciting. I then bought a stock 95 993, and it puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. There was no comparison, the 993 drove like a Porsche, the 996 drove like a Japanese sports car.

---Adam

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

I would hope so, seeing that it was the top of the line when it was made. A decent GT3 still commands $75,000-125,000, so you'll stay pay quite a premium for the privilege. Same with the 996 Turbo, I've heard great things about those. Neither of those cars are what I was talking about driving. I drove a bone stock 996 Anniversary Edition and it was not very exciting. I then bought a stock 95 993, and it puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. There was no comparison, the 993 drove like a Porsche, the 996 drove like a Japanese sports car.

---Adam

Not really, right now the 996 GT3's are trading hands for upper 60's - almost 993 kind of money. The production numbers are a lot smaller than for the 993's. Get one now while you still can.

Air cooled owners had a 'water allergy' when the 996 was introduced and looked for reasons not to like it - some were legit and some were less so. Now that the performance envelope of the water cooled cars has so far eclipsed that of the air cooleds, people are starting to be a little less haughty about the lowly 996. Sure there was cost cutting on the interior and the front end was originally shared with the Boxster. But with a price tag similar to a 993, the GT3's got a legit motorsports type Mezger that will rev to 8k...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-porsche-911-gt3-6/

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by pmax

So, that's a good to excellent specimen which the price will reflect.

The average 993 valuation, even just for the coupes, has been a flat line for 4-5 years.
Not sure where the "sky is falling" gloom of your original post is coming from.

You are so busy arguing you can’t even keep straight who you are arguing with.

I asserted that 996 TTs - a market I follow because I have one - have gone up. You seem to think because a Hagerty says they are 40k in good condition that’s what they fetch. I disagree. I never hated the 996s. I had a new 4S when they came out. It was quick, stopped and handled, had working A/C and never overheated. Something you couldn’t say about it’s predecessors. The headlights didn’t matter nearly as much as the badge. Plus a lot of the angst was going towards the Cayenne

The OP is concerned with the 993.
I don’t know that market. I don’t follow it because I don’t care for them. Plenty do. I’m not one of them. I see that the S versions are - to me - always at crazy asks. I’d rather have a decent 930 and cash to pay the taxes than a 993S. YMMV and that’s fine.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Ummm... this is Kansas’ thread. Alan never said the sky is falling.

Corrected !

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Alan A

You are so busy arguing you can’t even keep straight who you are arguing with.

Save that bold nonsense for the tech forum Please !

I asserted that 996 TTs - a market I follow because I have one - have gone up. You seem to think because a Hagerty says they are 40k in good condition that’s what they fetch. I disagree. I never hated the 996s. I had a new 4S when they came out. It was quick, stopped and handled, had working A/C and never overheated. Something you couldn’t say about it’s predecessors. The headlights didn’t matter nearly as much as the badge. Plus a lot of the angst was going towards the Cayenne

I believe the Hagerty numbers are real and do trust them as accurate, for both the 993 and 996 markets in discussion. You're suffering from owner's bias. Here, didn't take much effort to find this https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2003-porsche-911-turbo-46/

Never liked the 996 for the same reasons listed by someone earlier.

The OP is concerned with the 993.
I don’t know that market. I don’t follow it because I don’t care for them. Plenty do. I’m not one of them. I see that the S versions are - to me - always at crazy asks. I’d rather have a decent 930 and cash to pay the taxes than a 993S. YMMV and that’s fine.

The 996 variants deserve their own marketplace discussion, don't know why they are being lumped together here in this 993 thread.

[Kansas]

Originally Posted by wayner

My opinion on this is gong to be controversial but its an interesting take.

When the 993 came out it was an awesome space ship of modern design (for an air cooled 911) and those wide hips were to die for.

Now that a wide hipped 997 is relatively easy to obtain, just based on sex appeal, the 993 now has pretty significant competition visually. Yes there are differences but they are in the same ballpark superficially.

Then there is the interior.
The 993 was pure luxury. Finally a porche that was the kind of Porche the doctors and lawyers thought they were buying when they bought a Porsche, as opposed to the earlier years with interiors more focused on being a raw sportscar. In my opinion Porsche attempted to make interiors very nice before that but the 930 was the first one to bring the car into the new era of luxury.

I feel the 996 Camry interior was a step back, but the 997 again does a great job in that area.

AIR COOLED
This is what all the 993 fuss is about, and while you can get as good or better suspension in the 997, you can't get air cooled.

So if we just focus on air cooldness and more classic 911 design, there are more classic 911 shapes further back in the lineage.

I'm seeing 993 owners moving to 997s or newer for all of the conveniences and comfort that the newer cars offer, and collecting a long hood or GT3 rather than sticking with the 993. Especially in the slightly younger market that wasn't there to appreciate a 993 in the showroom when it was new.

The overall 911 market got subdivided by the recognition that a long hood was a different era, and the later era was subdivided between the 993 versus everything that came before it, (and you could argue that a 964 was a half step in that direction but the poor stepsister of the 993 so really doesn't count if you can find a 993 instead,)

Here is my thought on that 993 era:
A 997 covers the modern conveniences
a long hood covers collectability

Time and options have left the 993 with a lot more competition than it had when the 996 was the newest alternative ( I'd have picked the 993 any day over a 996)
...and a GT3 has been well accepted as a car in that combined space despite its water cooling. For me the decision to get a GT3 or a turbo 997 over the 993 would be a no brainer and there are a lot of us out there thinking this now.

So the primary appeal of the 993 is that it was the last one and therefore the best of the air cooled.For that reason it will always be special, but, there used to be a lot more reasons to want a 993

I think you make some fairly good points. And I'm inclined to agree with you on some of them. Back in 2012, I actually posted on the 993 Rennslist forum how the 997 would replace the 993 in terms of desirability due to similar styling cues. I got quite the outrage from the 993 fans. And I didn't understand the outrage until I finally ended up owning a 993 for the first time last year. The Porsche that I sold in order to purchase the 993, was a 997. And I know several other 997 owners that did the exact same thing. There is simply no comparison. Although the 997 is a much better looking car than than the 996, it still does not compare in styling to the 993. It is a much larger car... more of a touring type aston martin car, rather than a true sports car. It does not have the classic upright windshield stance as all the other classic aircooled 911s, nor the lower rear end stance. It is rather pedestrian looking to be quite honest. The 993's styling is a work of art. It is truly one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made. And it still has that solid, hewn-out-of-stone feel that the water-cooled 911s will NEVER have. The driving feel of the 997 is every bit as sterile as the 996. Don't get me wrong, it is a f'n rocket, but boring as hell to drive compared to the 993. So I totally disagree with your assessment that the 997 somehow replaced 993 in terms of desirability. Keep in mind that during the 993's peak value, the 997 was already 10 years old. That didn't seem to affect 993 desirability much.

[Kansas]

Originally Posted by Tonger

Not really, right now the 996 GT3's are trading hands for upper 60's - almost 993 kind of money. The production numbers are a lot smaller than for the 993's. Get one now while you still can.

Air cooled owners had a 'water allergy' when the 996 was introduced and looked for reasons not to like it - some were legit and some were less so. Now that the performance envelope of the water cooled cars has so far eclipsed that of the air cooleds, people are starting to be a little less haughty about the lowly 996. Sure there was cost cutting on the interior and the front end was originally shared with the Boxster. But with a price tag similar to a 993, the GT3's got a legit motorsports type Mezger that will rev to 8k...

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-porsche-911-gt3-6/

I don't think I've ever seen a more gutless, vanilla looking Porsche than this one. And I include all Porsche ever made, even a 914.

[Tonger]

Originally Posted by Kansas

I don't think I've ever seen a more gutless, vanilla looking Porsche than this one. And I include all Porsche ever made, even a 914.

...

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Kansas

I don't think I've ever seen a more gutless, vanilla looking Porsche than this one. And I include all Porsche ever made, even a 914.

More gutless looking than a 356 wearing its wheelbarrow wheels?!?! How about a 924 with its dainty, bar of soap looking self?!?! And most tailless 911s, for that matter, do not look brawny by any means (the early ones, especially, look more like Grandpa's grocery getter than a mean machine).

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Kansas

I think you make some fairly good points. And I'm inclined to agree with you on some of them. Back in 2012, I actually posted on the 993 Rennslist forum how the 997 would replace the 993 in terms of desirability due to similar styling cues. I got quite the outrage from the 993 fans. And I didn't understand the outrage until I finally ended up owning a 993 for the first time last year. The Porsche that I sold in order to purchase the 993, was a 997. And I know several other 997 owners that did the exact same thing. There is simply no comparison. Although the 997 is a much better looking car than than the 996, it still does not compare in styling to the 993. It is a much larger car... more of a touring type aston martin car, rather than a true sports car. It does not have the classic upright windshield stance as all the other classic aircooled 911s, nor the lower rear end stance. It is rather pedestrian looking to be quite honest. The 993's styling is a work of art. It is truly one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made. And it still has that solid, hewn-out-of-stone feel that the water-cooled 911s will NEVER have. The driving feel of the 997 is every bit as sterile as the 996. Don't get me wrong, it is a f'n rocket, but boring as hell to drive compared to the 993. So I totally disagree with your assessment that the 997 somehow replaced 993 in terms of desirability. Keep in mind that during the 993's peak value, the 997 was already 10 years old. That didn't seem to affect 993 desirability much.

(You make some good points as well, and Im glad that you and I can have this non mud slinging discussion :-)

I find it interesting comparing your assessment of a 993 and mine simply because we each arrived at a 993 experience from almost opposite directions. At the core are the things that we have found common ground on, and the differences can be explained by our personal biases based on past experience.

Where you find a 993 raw and visceral, I find it less so for obvious reasons when you see what I drive. But that doesn't make either of us right or wrong, adn its what I like most about experiencing other peoples cars. We have so much common ground, and Im all-out collecting experiences. So, one day maybe we will meet up and swap cars or at least passenger seats for a romp through the hills adn both come back to discuss over a beer if we can get rid of our **** eating grins. I think even Rawknees could excuse the lack of turbo one enough to enjoy the banter over a beer

[Kansas]

Originally Posted by wayner

(You make some good points as well, and Im glad that you and I can have this non mud slinging discussion :-)

I find it interesting comparing your assessment of a 993 and mine simply because we each arrived at a 993 experience from almost opposite directions. At the core are the things that we have found common ground on, and the differences can be explained by our personal biases based on past experience.

Where you find a 993 raw and visceral, I find it less so for obvious reasons when you see what I drive. But that doesn't make either of us right or wrong, adn its what I like most about experiencing other peoples cars. We have so much common ground, and Im all-out collecting experiences. So, one day maybe we will meet up and swap cars or at least passenger seats for a romp through the hills adn both come back to discuss over a beer if we can get rid of our **** eating grins. I think even Rawknees could excuse the lack of turbo one enough to enjoy the banter over a beer

I’d sell my soul for your car. That is sick looking! I see why u find the 993 I little refined. I’ve been wanting to do a back dated build or hot rod for awhile. I just need to win the lottery first!