Price Drops Here there and Everywhere...It Has Begun in Earnest

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

That "never makes mistakes" line makes me think of the times when a topic/mod/improvement is being discussed in 911 Tech and someone pipes up with, "You think you know better than the Porsche designers", and I always respond along lines of "apparently so, have you seen the good thinking that went into things like head studs materials, wiring worst practices, turbocharger oil plumbing, turbocharger selection (ridiculous turbo lag for no good reason), valve guide material choice, exhaust system fasteners, etc., etc., etc.". For some though, the almighty, Porsche knows best, lore is the be all end all, despite data that says otherwise.

I also heard about this IMS thingie with the newer Porsches, maybe it's just a glitch...

---Adam

[Macroni]

Whew that was a storm of opinion..... good to see everyone brought game to the conversation.....

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

That "never makes mistakes" line makes me think of the times when a topic/mod/improvement is being discussed in 911 Tech and someone pipes up with, "You think you know better than the Porsche designers", and I always respond along lines of "apparently so, have you seen the good thinking that went into things like head studs materials, wiring worst practices, turbocharger oil plumbing, turbocharger selection (ridiculous turbo lag for no good reason), valve guide material choice, exhaust system fasteners, etc., etc., etc.". For some though, the almighty, Porsche knows best, lore is the be all end all, despite data that says otherwise.

20 years ago now I bought 964 Cab accident car for 4k. It had been hit hard enough on a rear quarter to bust one of the tranny 4 bolt casting off and broke the adjoining engine case as well. We stripped the case down, and my Japanese friend (engineer, machinist/mechanic) proceeded to weld the engine case back together where it had broken off (from top to bottom nearly). He kept complaining that it was hard due to the fact that the alum rods he was using were so much cleaner than the filthy aluminum Porsche used in their engine cases. He did a proper job, but he did comment that Japanese engine cases are made of much higher quality material. Makes you think too about other components Porsche makes that are or were lesser than. This close friend and foreign car mechanic/car restorer said all German cars break down often for these reasons i.e. quality of components and clearances. Moreover, as he said. that's why Japanese cars don't break down conversely, especially Toyota. For what it's worth.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by 911heaven

20 years ago now I bought 964 Cab accident car for 4k. It had been hit hard enough on a rear quarter to bust one of the tranny 4 bolt casting off and broke the adjoining engine case as well. We stripped the case down, and my Japanese friend (engineer, machinist/mechanic) proceeded to weld the engine case back together where it had broken off (from top to bottom nearly). He kept complaining that it was hard due to the fact that the alum rods he was using were so much cleaner than the filthy aluminum Porsche used in their engine cases. He did a proper job, but he did comment that Japanese engine cases are made of much higher quality material. Makes you think too about other components Porsche makes that are or were lesser than. This close friend and foreign car mechanic/car restorer said all German cars break down often for these reasons i.e. quality of components and clearances. Moreover, as he said. that's why Japanese cars don't break down conversely, especially Toyota. For what it's worth.

Quality of parts and components has always meant something different to the Japanese in comparison to the rest of the world. I remember reading a case study in college where an American tractor company contracted a Japanese firm to make starter motors for their tractors. They insisted that they would tolerate no more than a 5% defect rate! This got lost in translation. When their order was ready there were about 10 pallets of starters and then the Japanese said there was an 11th pallet with the bad starters. They were really confused why the Americans wanted 5% bad starters, they painted red X's on these. To them they would only deliver 100% good starters and would test every one before they shipped them. It was a different mentality in terms of what quality means.

---Adam

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

I also heard about this IMS thingie with the newer Porsches, maybe it's just a glitch...

---Adam

You can tell what market you serve from this statement alone - newer in this case is 20 years ago.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by Alan A

You can tell what market you serve from this statement alone - newer in this case is 20 years ago.

People ask me how new we do Porsches, I say if it was built after me, we aren't very interested. I was born in 74.

---Adam

[911heaven]

Originally Posted by Unobtanium-inc

Quality of parts and components has always meant something different to the Japanese in comparison to the rest of the world. I remember reading a case study in college where an American tractor company contracted a Japanese firm to make starter motors for their tractors. They insisted that they would tolerate no more than a 5% defect rate! This got lost in translation. When their order was ready there were about 10 pallets of starters and then the Japanese said there was an 11th pallet with the bad starters. They were really confused why the Americans wanted 5% bad starters, they painted red X's on these. To them they would only deliver 100% good starters and would test every one before they shipped them. It was a different mentality in terms of what quality means.

---Adam

Yes Adam, I guess the Japanese were known for excellent quality control back in the 70s and 80s. Their electronics were second to none. Think of the names that have now gone by the wayside due to off shore production or market change -- Hitachi, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba etc. I landed here in the late 80s and even made a living off of these components out of the garbage during and after the bubble economy. No used market then for great stuff then Japanese were loading out on the street for the garbage man to pick up the next day. All still working and fairly late model! TVs, VCR, Stereos name it. They had no space to keep last years model if they bought the new one. I got to see those components first hand. Loaded a van load every night for years all over the city, that is until the earthquake which destroyed my game! That's when I got into cars instead of electronics.

bernie

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

You again miss the basic idea of how the market works. 51k is 51k. Your method of valuation is but one method. Just because YOU would not pay $48k for a low milage unicorn, that's doesn't mean others will not.

If I think a Gucci belt is only worth $10, but others pay $100, I am wrong on the value. THE MARKET IS NEVER WRONG. if I insisted the belt was only worth $10, I'm an idiot who doesn't understand how the fashion belt market works. The belt is worth $100 and I don't understand how belts are priced. This does not mean I don't understand belts, however.

The complex pricing reality exists regardless of your opinion (or ignorance) of it. if you have a one-dimensional view of pricing markets that's on you....The market has spoken. Mileage trumps everything in this particular car market. $48k is the actual market value and market doesn't matter what your solitary opinion is. Is your job to understand reality and operate within it. That means trying to understand why the market values that car at 48k, regardless of your personal feelings.

Keep smoking that crack. And what the $uck does a Gucci belt have to do with the car market? I was heavily involved with the grey market back in the 80's. Helped import over 70 Porsche's. I said when the current rise in the market started it had all the earmarkings of the 80's market all over. People laughed at me but time has proven me right. We are seeing the same thing happening I observed back then.

I find it hilarious that you think you have a clue to what the market is and how it works. Although my primary focus is on the 964 which is probably the most misunderstood of them all. it isn't much different for the SC's and all air-cooled cars.

I looked at countless Porsche's for people do PPI's all the time. I can't say for sure but this year alone I looked at hundreds of these cars for people. Your comment just proves you have no clue. There were a lot of ignorant people willing to throw their money at crap cars but those days are coming to an end. The buyers are far more educated now and are learning to pass on the junk and wait and pay up for the good ones.

I can line up a dozen 911's all with the same low miles and point out why one is worth $89k another not worth buying and the remaining fall someplace in between. The days of the uneducated buyer who will throw their money on anything air-cooled is over. Maybe you are that clueless that you believe mileage dictates unconditionally. The truth is condition is now as important as mileage but your ignorance seems to tell you otherwise.

Once again if you want an education I am not far away I would be happy to edjimicate you when you have the time to open your mind to reality.


As far as the cast cases of the 964 they are not all that bad. No doubt they could have been better but the problem with welding was he was using a pure aluminum rod on an alloyed case. I spent 30 years of my life supplying aluminum and magnesium castings to the Dod and aerospace industries I can assure you the quality is not a concern. I work on vintage Japanese cars as well and the quality of most of their castings IMO are crap compared to the Porsche parts.

[NYNick]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Keep smoking that crack. And what the $uck does a Gucci belt have to do with the car market? I was heavily involved with the grey market back in the 80's. Helped import over 70 Porsche's. I said when the current rise in the market started it had all the earmarkings of the 80's market all over. People laughed at me but time has proven me right. We are seeing the same thing happening I observed back then.

I find it hilarious that you think you have a clue to what the market is and how it works. Although my primary focus is on the 964 which is probably the most misunderstood of them all. it isn't much different for the SC's and all air-cooled cars.

I looked at countless Porsche's for people do PPI's all the time. I can't say for sure but this year alone I looked at hundreds of these cars for people. Your comment just proves you have no clue. There were a lot of ignorant people willing to throw their money at crap cars but those days are coming to an end. The buyers are far more educated now and are learning to pass on the junk and wait and pay up for the good ones.

I can line up a dozen 911's all with the same low miles and point out why one is worth $89k another not worth buying and the remaining fall someplace in between. The days of the uneducated buyer who will throw their money on anything air-cooled is over. Maybe you are that clueless that you believe mileage dictates unconditionally. The truth is condition is now as important as mileage but your ignorance seems to tell you otherwise.

Once again if you want an education I am not far away I would be happy to edjimicate you when you have the time to open your mind to reality.


As far as the cast cases of the 964 they are not all that bad. No doubt they could have been better but the problem with welding was he was using a pure aluminum rod on an alloyed case. I spent 30 years of my life supplying aluminum and magnesium castings to the Dod and aerospace industries I can assure you the quality is not a concern. I work on vintage Japanese cars as well and the quality of most of their castings IMO are crap compared to the Porsche parts.

Anthony,
Let's have a cup of coffee someday. I'm not that far away in Westchester. If you're ever up this way give me a ring, and vice versa.
Nick

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

You again miss the basic idea of how the market works. 51k is 51k. Your method of valuation is but one method. Just because YOU would not pay $48k for a low milage unicorn, that's doesn't mean others will not.

If I think a Gucci belt is only worth $10, but others pay $100, I am wrong on the value. THE MARKET IS NEVER WRONG. if I insisted the belt was only worth $10, I'm an idiot who doesn't understand how the fashion belt market works. The belt is worth $100 and I don't understand how belts are priced. This does not mean I don't understand belts, however.

The complex pricing reality exists regardless of your opinion (or ignorance) of it. if you have a one-dimensional view of pricing markets that's on you....The market has spoken. Mileage trumps everything in this particular car market. $48k is the actual market value and market doesn't matter what your solitary opinion is. Is your job to understand reality and operate within it. That means trying to understand why the market values that car at 48k, regardless of your personal feelings.

Originally Posted by NYNick

Anthony,
Let's have a cup of coffee someday. I'm not that far away in Westchester. If you're ever up this way give me a ring, and vice versa.
Nick

Nick,

Most definitely I always enjoy meeting others. I don't get up that way often but we should exchange info and find a time.

It is interesting that there is a 964 being discussed on Rennlist with high miles but completely and properly restored. Asking just <$100k. A lot of interesting changes in the markets.

[voitureltd]

Quote: I can line up a dozen 911's all with the same low miles and point out why one is worth $89k another not worth buying and the remaining fall someplace in between. The days of the uneducated buyer who will throw their money on anything air-cooled is over. Maybe you are that clueless that you believe mileage dictates unconditionally. The truth is condition is now as important as mileage but your ignorance seems to tell you otherwise.

Agree totally. Good to hear Porsche air cooled buyers ( and others ) are getting good info if they are smart. My take, as a now retired appraiser, dealer, concours judge of Exotic cars for many decades. Also VoitureLTD had a world class restoration shop specializing in 300 SL, 507 etc. Buyers of poorly kept ones they had acquired without our inspection soon realized how much in total dollars it costs extra to prepare for concours or just to have a respectable one when completed when buying a neglected, and / or heavily damaged, poorly serviced, or one driven previously in salt conditions. Low miles and " totally original" or rare color / Paint to sample claims are just a couple of many value considerations.

[NYNick]

Anyone see the Thread in Tech where Sugar offered to do a local drive by PPI for an out of state buyer? I'm almost choked on my coffee.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Keep smoking that crack. And what the $uck does a Gucci belt have to do with the car market? I was heavily involved with the grey market back in the 80's. Helped import over 70 Porsche's. I said when the current rise in the market started it had all the earmarkings of the 80's market all over. People laughed at me but time has proven me right. We are seeing the same thing happening I observed back then.

I find it hilarious that you think you have a clue to what the market is and how it works. Although my primary focus is on the 964 which is probably the most misunderstood of them all. it isn't much different for the SC's and all air-cooled cars.

I looked at countless Porsche's for people do PPI's all the time. I can't say for sure but this year alone I looked at hundreds of these cars for people. Your comment just proves you have no clue. There were a lot of ignorant people willing to throw their money at crap cars but those days are coming to an end. The buyers are far more educated now and are learning to pass on the junk and wait and pay up for the good ones.

I can line up a dozen 911's all with the same low miles and point out why one is worth $89k another not worth buying and the remaining fall someplace in between. The days of the uneducated buyer who will throw their money on anything air-cooled is over. Maybe you are that clueless that you believe mileage dictates unconditionally. The truth is condition is now as important as mileage but your ignorance seems to tell you otherwise.

Once again if you want an education I am not far away I would be happy to edjimicate you when you have the time to open your mind to reality.


As far as the cast cases of the 964 they are not all that bad. No doubt they could have been better but the problem with welding was he was using a pure aluminum rod on an alloyed case. I spent 30 years of my life supplying aluminum and magnesium castings to the Dod and aerospace industries I can assure you the quality is not a concern. I work on vintage Japanese cars as well and the quality of most of their castings IMO are crap compared to the Porsche parts.

[manbridge 74]

Love that Don Quixote guy!!

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Whew that was a storm of opinion..... good to see everyone brought game to the conversation.....

I luvz me some noodles!

[pmax]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Whew that was a storm of opinion..... good to see everyone brought game to the conversation.....

How bout dem Gucci belts ?

If Sugga in fact wears them, that would explain everything !

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by pmax

How bout dem Gucci belts ?

If Sugga in fact wears them, that would explain everything !

Even Sugga deserves a little love.... he brought it....

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

I luvz me some noodles!

Forum fist bump...

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Macroni

Forum fist bump...

Speaking of which, I've heard some disturbing stories about ol' Bernz and fists!

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

I needs my entertainment. Suga is at least good for some morning venting.