If the slave is that nasty, I’m scared to picture the rest of the car. Hard pass.

OK then , let's talk about the car you "won".

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613417869.jpg

What are we looking at ?

Toolkit's in bad shape for a mostly fair weather car.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613430732.jpg


What a mess.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613430856.jpg

I didn't think about it at first, but my intuition said wtf kind of slave looks like that. Now that you mention it I'm thinking water damaged car perhaps? I thought it might have been a barn find in the Chernobyl region, but that isn't possible since Chernobyl predates the car by 5-6 years.

So I am late to this game but if this is the car that is in question???
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-911s-13/ and sold for $27k then the buyer backs out due to rust I can only say WTF!

I see cars like this sell for far more all the time. Not saying it is right or makes any sense but it is a common thing lately. I have an 83 SC cab with the most god awful wide body conversion bad rust with an owner begging to have the engine rebuilt. I don't want to touch the car as it is a nightmare but people will happily pay top dollar for cars with needs and then pay to fix them up no matter what the cost. I don't get it in many cases but to each their own. It will cost at least $20k more like $30k to make the car safe to drive and then it is cosmetically challenged.

IMO to back out of a BaT auction on that car for rust is unthinkable. If you had any doubts about the car you shouldn't bid. If you bid you should follow through expecting all sorts of hidden issues. I have seen some shady sales go through on BaT but IMO this wasn't close. If you had any beliefs this car was more than it was then shame on you. Clearly you need to go back to 911 school.

As far as C4's they are great cars although many are chopped up and converted to C2's and if not singer has been helping in that area. Autobahn in CA and many others have parts from these conversions you can source for cheap. The car I purchased to do my first track build was in awful condition and had lots of damage from sitting outside for 10 years uncovered and a leaking sunroof. I am not sure what the story is regarding this C4 but my experience tells me it looks like whatever life it lived prior it is going to have a lot of hidden issues that the next buyer will be paying for. Corrosion like that takes more than 10 years of sitting outside in snow and rain to develop.

Also why did the 964 sell poorly? Most think it was the looks but was it?

Hi
 

That slave cylinder was on a 89 C4, with 107k from Texas. You must understand the 2 slave cylinder units are mounted on the side of the transmission not in a covered area protected, so it becomes trashed very quickly by road grime.

Most C4’s need these replaced, but the car still works and drives so it’s a matter of wanting the locking differential
The 4wd still works but the system will not activate the locking differential automatically
Another big ticket item is the ABS control modular from Porsche $4100, used hard to fine, so I am beginning to think the C2 has many advantages in repair costs.
Plus these Models onward have a slave unit for the clutch assembly and a clutch master brake unit that is another cylinder type...

Then all motor mounts and transmission mounts should be replaced. And engine mounts on the 964 is hydraulic not solid big costs, I removed and used RS mounts.
The Customer is wanting it done still ....but is now on his way to a lot of costs, unfortunately.

The ABS unit for C4 is I think 52 pins and about 8 are broken, the C2 unit has one row less.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1613503591.jpg

Preaching to the choir, Billy. I've been telling people for years to avoid all but the most pristine C4s because of the cost of these parts.

Singer not getting good money on the unused 964 parts from the conversions then ?

These are all well known and documented issues with the 964 C4. Although if you know where to look and shop these parts can be had for a fraction of the cost new or used don't need to cost so much. I also have been hoarding many parts I knew were becoming NLA years ago. I can build another 964 with the inventory of parts I have, maybe more than one car, all it takes is a tub.

911's are no longer cars for the owner on a budget especially a 964. Each model has its Achilles heel. We saw that with seat rails for early cars exceeding $2k years ago and other hard to find bits and pieces. The 964 turbos have the EZ69 control module which is model specific between the 3.3L and the 3.6L. These cannot be replicated as the parts can no longer be made and when they go you are in for a big surprise. The used market can bring as much as $4000 for them. The C4 ABS brain has always been an issue and most of them are not repairable once the pins pull from the board. In 2015 you could pick them up for $500 all day long today the average used price is $2100. While new lists for $4880 they sell for $3300 new from most suppliers. Still stupid expensive but nothing compared to the cost to reseal and replace all the aged out and worn out rubber bits like fuel lines and oil lines. If you need an engine or transmission rebuild you know where that will land you these days.

The average 964 C2/C4 in decent condition will set you back around $55k then anyone buying should consider the deferred maintenance and age costs. These can easily set you back $15k to a high side of $45k all depending on what you need done. Most buyers I see today are check writers and not the enthusiasts of years ago that didn't mind some grease and oil under their nails. If you can wrench on these yourself you can save a small fortune. If you don't know what you are doing you can spend a large fortune fixing your mistakes or you can pay someone. The problem I see is most independent shops know this and charge out the wazoo.

The parts sold by these dismantling shops are expensive but if you are smart buy some of the parts when you don't need them and search the forums people are selling parts cheap all the time you just have to look. I picked up a like new C4 ABS brain not long ago for $750. There are also places that can rebuild these if you know where to look.

I have been looking at what people are paying to maintain and keep just about any used 911 running and if you are a check writer I am seeing an average cost of ownership now creeping up on the $100,000 mark and it doesn't matter if it looks good or not it gets you either in the buy in or the upkeep be it an SC a 964 or any 911.

I know where the C4 units are mounted and that car screams of Texas flood damage. I have seen several people purchase similar cars which were just like that thinking they would get off cheap and are well into the cars for triple the buy in.

Long-time C4 owner here. Sorry, most of the above simply is not true.

“Most” C4s have not been converted to C2 or bought by Singer.

The slave solenoids can be rebuilt with a ~$120 kit from 9m in the UK, which anyone would learn from a 5sec google search. Most do not “need to be replaced”. They only need rebuilt if brake fluid flushes have been neglected and the 20 year old brake fluid is full of seal-destroying crud, just like any clutch slave on earth.

Having broken pins on the abs ecu is rare and a sign of corrosion from water intrusion (common theme: neglect). The C2 abs ecu is prone to the same.

The 964 launch coincided with the ‘89/‘90 recession, which had an obvious impact on sales and momentum for the new model.

There is probably more false info in this thread, but not really my job. Enjoy :)

That was already posted by wgwollet. ;)

I believe I said many not most have been converted. I own 2 and know of dozens of others. That is many but who’s counting. I see many ABS brains with broken pins not only Porsche. That is why I have several I keep just in case. The last C4 needing one was a very clean car but humidity and moisture did cause the problem.

I agree with the recession and sudden market shift to SUV’s. Most people say it was the looks. There were only 5100 964 coupes imported both C2/C4 tip & manual with about 50% no longer with us. So many were crashed and parted out. Many of those parts sold here on pelican.

I will also add that Singer delivered their 100th car just last year, after a decade in business. Singer isn't killing all these cars. There just aren't that many of them left.

"just not that many left"

There are around 30,000 coupes worldwide. If half were crashed, and half of those left are tips, 100 Singer cars are still barely over 1% of the total. The paranoia about Singer rising up like Nosferatu to suck the blood out of all the stock 964s is nuts.

"dozens" of converted C4s, out of roughly 15,000 C4 coupes, is a far cry from "many" in my book.

"50% no longer with us" Based on any concrete numbers? Or personal anecdote based on a tiny fraction?

That pdas cylinder looks like what I would expect from any older car in a dry climate. The aluminum plungers corrode if exposed to leaking brake fluid. The bodies and cylinders never seem to corrode on these and this one looks caked dusty/dirty to my eyes. What are you all seeing?

The abs ecu gets hit from a waterfall entering through a badly sealing frunk gasket or a missing bumper shock seal. The wiring harness position feeds any leaks directly on to the pins. If it was from typical humidity and moisture then the horizontal abs pump electrics would also corrode, which never happens. Either the corner of the frunk seal has separated, or the bumper shock gasket was split/missing after a bumper removal. I consider either to be signs of poor upkeep.

Anyway, facts probably won't dispel the internet myths. Summarizing: Singer is coming for your daughters and the 964 C4 is a hot mess. :)

You day drinking, dude? Because you sure are full of piss and vinegar. Even when you're agreeing with with me you make it sound like an argument.

Singer is buying up the available supply, so they are contributing to prices going up because these cars don’t come on the market that often. I don’t think anyone is pretending they’re buying up a significant proportion of all 964s produced.

Err, I'm not agreeing with you. Seemed simple enough that "not that many left" is not how most would describe 30,000 production coupes, no? Sorry you take it as a piss&vinegar laced argument and no offense intended.

I'm not a day drinker, unless on the beach somewhere, but I don't judge if that's your thing. :)

Edit- Black, I don't know that I'm convinced. G-body prices are at all-time highs too despite Singer not buying any of those. Air-cooled 911s are in fashion at the moment, more than ever. I find it hard to believe that Singer's tiny number of purchases is raising the value of thousands of cars. Singer's 964 hype and advertising no doubt has an impact.

I lol’d....

You agreed with my point about Singer in painful detail. ;)

Ah, my fault. I was disagreeing with your "not many" assessment, then folded in the bit about the pervasive Singer paranoia. That last part wasn't directed to anyone in particular but I feel like it flows out of the idea that there aren't many coupes around.

I'll pour myself a rare weeknight bourbon tonight in your honor. Stop on by for a glass :)