Buying sight unseen/Rant

[mdmiller911]

I know the common trend now is to buy via internet w/out physically looking over it with your own two eyes. Personally, I would never drop alot of money on a big purchase, such as an old Porsche, unless I knew %100 that I wouldn't get hurt. I have read more horror stories about Ebay purchases than I can count but these transactions still occur.

All of the 911s I have seen on Ebay and been interested in buying have been let downs when I physically checked them out. The first was a 1970T that was rusted through and through. In the description, the seller did say that there was rust, but not that substantial! The pictures looked great and on the phone, he was pleasent and seemed genuine. Our opinions just differed when it came to quality. I also drove over 400mi round trip to see a 83 euro 930. It was a beautiful car! But the turbo was dead, the engine was beat, the clutch was toast, tranny was terrible...... But the pictures looked great and he sounded honest on the phone. He thought it ran great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE TURBO WAS SHOT!!!!!!! (on a side note, he bought the 930 less than a year earlier off of Ebay from the west coast for $20,000) I have a few more stories but they ended up the same way.

Ebay is a great advertising/selling tool. In Pittsburgh, there is a very small market for Porsches and finding them w/out driving a long distance to see them is few and far between. Alot of us are most likely in the same situation. I have seen many 911s I would love to buy but I stop short of clicking BUY IT NOW because I know that there are more shady sellers looking for the quick buck than honest ones.

It makes me angry when I read these stories about people selling rust buckets on Ebay but claiming that it is "in great condition". Then they hide behind their vague descriptions and disclaimers. Then they blame the buyer for agreeing to a misrepresentation!

Has anyone had a pleasent experience buying a Porsche, or any other classic or desireable car from Ebay? If so, please post and reaffirm my opinion of the Ebay society.

[Cal44]

Even if the seller has the best of intentions you can still get the Chile. I bought a '70 Corvette from a guy as honest as the day is long. Trouble was he knew nothing about cars. It was everything he said only the poor dear needed an engine rebuild. So yes he was honest, he honestly didn't a thing about cars. The car is now gone to the next guy and I still talk to the guy that sold me the car, why?, honest man. Just didn't know what a 350 could do. This all came about on Ebay. I will never again make that mistake. I have spent some money lately on PPI. It has paid off as I have not bought the cars I thought I wanted. Thank goodness for Porsche techs. The last potential purchase was with worn out sycros 1 and 2 and a leak down test that came back a 17% and 18%. Beautiful car but what a potential financial nightmare.

[linklaw]

I am from Pittsburgh too and can confirm what mdmiller911 stated about porsches (especially those for sale) being scarce around here. I bought a 1987 Targa off of ebay about a month and a half ago and am pleased with the purchase. I saw the car had failed to meet reserve and was relisted a couple of times. I called the seller and talked with him about the car for a half hour. He said he owned the car since 1997 or 98 and had significant maintenance and repair work (to the tune of $14K) done to the car during his ownership. The car had under ninety thousand miles on it and was described as being in good condition. He and the car were from Columbus Ohio, about 2 hours away. I bid $15,100 and won the auction. The next day I got a cashier's check and drove with a friend over to Columbus. I met the seller, with the car, at a restaurant and did my own ppi. If I was not satisfied with what I saw, I was prepared to walk away with my check in my pocket. It turns out the car was as described and I was satisfied, so I paid him and drove it home. So far, I haven't discovered any bad surprises and am happy with the purchase. A couple of years ago I bought an Autokraft MkIV off of ebay, sight unseen, from Miami, Florida. I relied on the photos and numerous conversations with the current and prior owner. The car was even better than I expected it would be. It was described as having been modified by Roush racing back when it was new and I was unable to confirm that before I bought it. I thought the seller was bsing me to sell the car, but I bought it anyway. I have since obtained a folder of purchase orders and other paperwork from Roush which documents the modifications made to the car back in the 80s, just like the seller said. I get lucky sometimes. John

[trader220]

I dont know why I let these things get my goat so much but it really irks me when the same dealers post auction after auction filled with lies and garbage used car salesman tactics. I know a fool and his money are soon parted but it really irks me that the same dealer gets away with the crap over and over.

[Sunroof]

Take a look at the Atlanta, GA market. It a surprise to many to learn that the second largest Porsche market next to California is Atlanta, GA! Try and get a hold of the CarTrader or take a look at the Peachstate PCA Market letter in addition to the Sunday Atlanta Journal Constitution. Down here you can drive year round, do not encounter any salted roads and find a fairly large variety of 911's and water-pumpers.

You can contact Rylands, Proformance Place (Reggie), Jack Lewis Motors, Franz Blam, Automobile Atlanta (George) as examples of reputable shops that have been around for decades who probably know a good 911 in your price range and can even manage a PPI if needed.

I have been a Porsche owner for 30 years, PCA member and on this board for quite awhile, have used everyone one of these shops and am passing on pretty good advise........................

Good luck

Bob
1973.5T Sepia of course

[tfmcmahon]

Never ever buy a car sight unseen! End of story. I saw a car on e-bay 3 weeks ago in Denver.I liked what I saw. I got a hold of someone I knew from PCA and asked him for a reference to check out a 912 SWT.I struck a deal for $125 for a known consultant from Denver to look.In the subsequent conversation the guy doing the PPI started to tell me what to offer and said my estimate on price was too low.I got suspicious and flat asked him if he was getting a finders fee from the seller.He had the balls to say yes! Conflict of interest? Not to this guy.Deal was over at that point.The morale of the story is make sure that you also know who is doing the PPI and he is in your camp.The sad part is the guy is still pissed I haven`t sent the money and he dosen`t have a clue why he won`t see it--and he is in the business!!!! Buy a plane ticket and go see the car.It`s cheaper in the long run and way more fun. Tom

[mkaraoglan]

[tfmcmahon]
so you hired a guy that had no connection with the seller and he turned around and made a deal with the seller to get a kickback for ok'ing the car?
wow, would love to get the name of that tech for future reference

[tfmcmahon]

That was precisely the scenario.

[Rot 911]

OTOH, why would you buy a car for $30K without flying out there to personally inspect it. What does a round trip ticket cost to anywhere in the U.S.? Less than $1000? Money well spent if you ask me.

[914agogo]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

OTOH, why would you buy a car for $30K without flying out there to personally inspect it. What does a round trip ticket cost to anywhere in the U.S.? Less than $1000? Money well spent if you ask me.

Amen to that!
BTW what is OTOH stand for?

[baldman]

On The Other Hand

[mdmiller911]

Out of the almost 300 people to view this post, only 1 has had a good sight unseen Porsche buying experience with ebay?

[88cs]

I've bought two Porshes sight unseen from Rennlist.

One was a 1988 Club Sport, I'd never seen one but it happened that a friend of mine had told me about the car a few months prior. I knew it was the same car because it has an option it's not supposed to, and my friend's description of it and the seller's ageed. And he priced it too low, so it was buy it sight unseen or lose it. That was eight years ago, I still have it, and it was better than he said it was.

I also bought a 1981 SC with a blown up motor, when I went to pick it up before I said a word the seller told me that he had found a couple of flaws that he hadn't noticed or disclosed, (when it got towed the steering wheel broke and the mirror looked like it broke, turned out it didn't), and gave me $500 off what we had ageed on, I hadn't even opened my mouth. Tyson Schmidt rebuilt the motor, I drive it all the time, great car.

Ebay to me seems to have become the place of last resort to sell a car, I know I've seen a lot of cars for sale here and they are overpriced for what they are and then the ads say, "off to ebay", and I silently wish the bidders luck.

I came fairly close to buying a car from ebay sight unseen, I would love to get a Hemi Coronet. Muscle car prices seem to be tanking at the moment, and I saw one that seemed like a really great deal, it went through with no bids twice and came up a third time, (interestingly it went for 1/3 lower than the high bid that didn't hit reserve the time before. Shill bidding?)

Some of the Hemi guys are as fanatical as a lot of us are, and they have boards like this where they discuss cars for sale, and I know one of the fanatics. Really wanting to buy this car I e-mailed him, he sent me links to three discussions about the car and what I read was enough to cool my interest.

If I was going to buy a Porsche sight unseen again I think I'd ask questions here, unless I didn't want you all to see it and buy it first:-)

[Jay H]

I also think that some buyers expect way too much out of these old cars unless they are strictly in it to flip it. Yes, of course undisclosed rust-through and poor leakdown numbers really foul a deal. But, most sellers are either ignorant as to what they have or will lie to their mother on what they have. There are very few Porsche experts that will sell their personal car and give you a completely honest report on what the car is on the phone or in person. There is only one Peter Zimmerman selling his car right now. I'd buy that car without a PPI...

Personally, I would never drop alot of money on a big purchase, such as an old Porsche, unless I knew 100% that I wouldn't get hurt.

If you can't take the risk of an older Porsche, you shouldn't be buying one then. If you are a buyer that intends to keep a 911 for a long period of time, you really have to expect to dump some coin into these things and lose everything but maybe the original purchase price. Can you possibly expect an old sports car to not need a full clutch replacement, transmission rebuild, paint work, etc. etc. at some point soon? Clutches even fail at 10,000 miles from idiot operators.

Every one of these cars are gambles. I don't care who owned it, who maintained it, or what the owner promises. I bet Pete Zimmerman's car will still need something in the near term when the new owner buys it. The only cars that are not financial gambles are ones that are priced rediculously low, are still brand new, are still under the original factory warranty or all of the above.

Buyer beware. Everytime.

Jay
90 964, 84 3.2

[Jay H]

Originally Posted by 88cs

And he priced it too low, so it was buy it sight unseen or lose it.

I agree. You really gotta jump on these deals when they present themselves. If you are new to buying Porsche's, then stick with the inspect it yourself & pay for the PPI plan regardless of how good the deal seems to be. However, if you are around these cars long enough, you know what to look for and if you miss the flaw, at least you know what you are going to pay to fix that flaw and can plan your budget accordingly.

I bought my last 911 sight unseen with no PPI. I had about an hour to make up my mind based on an hour conversation with the owner and about a dozen medium resolution digital pictures. There was no time for PPI's or flying out to see the car. The car needed $8000 worth of work after I got it home and I might get $3000 of that work back should I care to sell it. However I didn't care because it was THE car I was looking for both mechanically and cosmetically. I knew full well I'd dump $10k into the thing making it what I wanted it to be.

It's been said here and on Rennlist that all these cars are $20,000 cars. I'm thinking they all are $30k cars if you want them perfect...

[mkimber]

Well put, Jay. I bought my both '87 and '95 sight unseen. Fortunately, I was reasonably lucky with both purchases. I had to move fast with both cars, but both cars were exactly what I was looking for. The '87 was on eBay. The '95 was from a Rennlister. I agree--unless you are buying brand or relatively new and under warranty, you are taking a gamble. As aptly put by one of my fellow club members, "owning older Porsches is not for the faint of heart."

[Macroni]

I bought my 73 3.2T sight unseen. The car was built by a Pelican, Speedo, and I got a Grady Clay review and that was enough for me.

[9dreizig]

I bought my 86 turbo sight unseen , flew down to pick it up an have never regretted it.. I also bought my 80 roller totally unseen off Pelican , sent the check and had it delivered.. again very positive experience...

[jakeoregano]

I bought a 68 912 off of ebay about 2 1/2 years ago. I was fortunate in that the car just happened to be about 50 miles from me, so I went and looked at it and it passed my inspection. Admittedly, I had absolutely no business buying one of these either sight unseen or otherwise, because I knew nothing about them. I do know what rust is and what it looks like, but didn't know where to look on these fine old cars. Eventhough the seller did say it was rust free it was not. I am amazed at what rust free means to people. The front suspension pan had to be replaced and the gas tank restored, but the shop that did it gave the rest of the car the ok. If I had bought this car sight unseen, I would have been quite disapointed, but it would have been my fault.
Bottom line is that I got really lucky with this car. It turns out to be remarkably original, with a great original interior (except for the wooden nardi wheel I couldn't resist putting in). The original engine is great shape and the car is now well sorted.
I absolutely love my car, but my next p-car will be a much more thorough and informed buying decision. The ebay transaction taught me to not rely on just my inspection, but get a knowledable uninterested 3rd party to do a PPI!!

Caveat Emptor and Cheers,
Dwayne.

[lawlar]

I bought my 88 from e-bay from a local party. I told the seller I would pay the buy it now price subject to a PPI. He agreed so I went ahead and paid the buy it now price with a $1,000 deposit. Seller was nice about the transaction. He agreed to refund the $1,000 deposit if the car didn't pass the PPI. Not sure if I would buy again from ebay as I consider my experience to be good only because of the seller.