Wisdom of the crowd - What's this 1973.5 worth?

[Doc Porsche]

Fellow Pelicans,

I have been lurking around for quite some time on this forum. Now it is time to step up and become an active member of this great community! I am in the market for a longhood Targa, preferably a 1973.5 CIS.
I have seen this one here on Pelican, early911s, Samba and ebay (did I miss any place?):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/623991-1973-5-porsche-911t-targa-driver-san-diego.html

911T Cars for Sale

TheSamba.com :: VW Classifieds - 1973.5 Porsche 911T targa matching# no rust loaded

Porsche : 911 | eBay

Me wonders if the $25k asking price is realistic? (don't mean to be disrespectful, just want to get a realistic feel for current market prices out there!):
- no documentation about prior work done
- huge chip in driver's door
- dash cap
- non-matching color
- blacked out trim

On the positive side, she is
- a numbers matching car (minus the paint)
- apparently rust-free
- having a solid underside
- nicely equipped

What's your collective take on the asking price? Every opinion is appreciated.

[kp.sfo]

Originally Posted by Doc Porsche

Now it is time to step up and become an active member of this great community!

Hi Doc !
Welcome to the greatest forum of all times. Rest assured that you'll get great advice from many fellow Pelicans. Make sure to ask all questions you might have.

Originally Posted by Doc Porsche

What's your collective take on the asking price?

Your title says it all: "wisdom of the crowd" - this is really what it's all about, since there is no such thing as an objective value for a 40yrs old car. Therefore I'd say it is a clever strategy to ask for several opinions, and then synthesize your personal take from it.
If you are somewhat flexible in terms of model year, then check out this one - offered at the same price on Samba:
TheSamba.com :: VW Classifieds - 72 911t targa outstanding calif car

Good luck in your search, and keep us posted how it goes!

[E Sully]

It would cost quite a bit to make it a nice original.
Vin Plate has been tampered with, not good even if original. Also, I believe it should be AG, not KG. What does the vin on the windshield post look like.
I don't see the 2 red horns in the fenderwell. Interior is nice except for dash cap and visors.
Paint chip, color and trim are issues. Is the S bumper original equipment?
I'd want to poke around the jack posts and the front suspension pan to check for rust.

[geshaghi]

I think both of the cars mentioned above look like good quality drivers from the photos, but I haven't seen either one in person and have no experience with either seller (both dealers). IMO, the only thing holding back the 73.5 is the color change. If the 72 is a numbers matching car in the original color, I suspect it will be sold soon.

[Doc Porsche]

Originally Posted by E Sully

Vin Plate has been tampered with, not good even if original.

Wow, excellent find! Although I'd argue that the VIN plate could just have been removed for the repaint, and it was screwed on back again afterwards. But definitively worth some more research.

Originally Posted by E Sully

Also, I believe it should be AG, not KG.

Again - is your middle name 'Sherlock'?
This change is period correct. I looked up the Porsche history on the German wikipedia site where it says that the legal company was changed from Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche KG to Porsche AG in 1972:
"Ferry Porsche und Louise Piëch entschieden 1972 wegen des Kompetenzgerangels in der Generation ihrer Kinder, dass in den Gesellschaften der Familie nach ihnen keine Familienmitglieder mehr tätig sein dürfen. Die Enkel des Gründers, Entwicklungsleiter Ferdinand Piëch, Produktionsleiter Hans-Peter Porsche sowie Chefdesigner Ferdinand Alexander Porsche verließen daraufhin das Unternehmen und aus der Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche KG wurde im gleichen Jahr die Porsche AG."

[vracer]

Quick answer - Too much money.
Short addendum - 73.5 is a good number.

[RatBox]

The KG to AG VIN tag switch occured at some point of production in May 1973.

[E Sully]

The stamp in the trunk by the smugglers box looks original, but if you are looking for collectors value an altered vin is a big problem.
I would post a question on Ebay to the seller asking about the reattached vin and for a picture of the window frame vin.

[RatBox]

The stamps on that 1214 car tag shown here are genuine , and it is an old tag. A 1200 no. range T model was built in Nov. or Dec. 1972 (related to my previous post).

I just looked at the car's ad here on PP. From what I can see , it's mark at vintage excellence in SD , a very stand-up guy.

[E Sully]

I'm not saying it's fake, just tampered with. It is supposedly a cis car which is a late '73 model. My compliance door sticker shows July of 1973 production. Mine has the AG as shown in the bottom vin plate picture. If the buyer is looking to make sure the car will retain value, this is a bad thing. Ebay allows you to ask the seller questions and I would recommend it. Ask to see the pillar vin on the windshield and why the front plate was removed and reattached. The serial numbers are correct for a 1973 cis Targa and I don't think the owner is trying to pull a fast one or he would not have posted the vin picture, but it is not a $25,000 car.

[RatBox]

Excuse me, I did not take the time to realise that this was a Targa being discussed . The nov. - dec. time frame for production would be for a 73T coupe with that unit number.

I have no data to access , checking 73 T model Targa production # to month.

[Doc Porsche]

Folks,

your posts have been extremely valuable to me. I would have overlooked the issue with the VIN plate. I am now curious to find out the truth about it.

Any other opinions about the car in general?

Thanks again, I can't wait to contribute to the forum with my own content.

[confused]

So this is where these questions came from. Figures there is someone on a message board trying to tear apart a car.

This is my car, it is 100% authentic. The chip in the door is pictured to give the buyer a detailed description, this is a clear coat car so it would cost around $250 to repair the chip and re-clear coat the entire door so really it is not a big deal. Trim is black - so just re-trim it: decos $350, window trims $320, wing window frames $250 and you are done, the rest should be black on a late 73.


As far as values are concerned most pelican posts on value will rate a car much lower than reality. They always say a car is worth much less. Buyers and lookers are 2 different people and most of the commentators are not buyers. You have to weigh what is on the market vs my car: 100% rust free car, good original options (yes all parts noted are original Porsche parts and not aftermarket), and finally how well this car drives - its in great mechanical condition. All cars are not the same, the last 911s are worth more than earlier cars because of better equipment/performance. Good driving cars are worth more. You are welcome to poke and prod around everywhere underneath and I guarantee no rust. I am kind of an expert when it comes to finding very good 911 cars so my words have good value. I am not one of the usual dealers who lies to the end of the earth to sell a bad car. I try to have good cars and that saves the effort trying to sell junk.

Anyway I should not be answering this post because it really is pointless to argue with people who are not buyers. I had a deal with a German at $24k who left a deposit and then failed to pay the remainder. So now I am stuck with re-listing the car and trying to sell it again. I do not see many comparable cars on the market regardless of price.

Steven Dick already sold his silver targa with the tan interior, it was a little shinier than mine, I agree but it is now gone.

I mean really am I a bad seller? None of the people who previously bought cars from me thought so:

Vintage Excellence

[E Sully]

Tempermental? I have not accused you of doing wrong. I gave my opinion on this forum. I have a 1973.5 coupe for the past 24+ years and love it. My brother liked mine enough to buy a similar Targa. Nice, but noisy and more maintenance to keep it leak free, a bit more body flex. I believe coupes are worth a little more than Targa's, but some like the open air and flex more than I do.
For real value original paint is better, not a color change with 2 stage paint instead of original color single stage paint. Your top quality paint shop did a poor job with the Vin plate. I stated you did not try to hide this since you posted a picture of it. Out in my neck of the woods, DMV has to reattach it.
I said the it's a nice car, does look original and you did not seem to be hiding things. What is the car worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay for it. No maintenance records do not help. What are the compression and leak down numbers? Did the car originaly come with the options shown? Maybe, but you haven't shown proof it came with them from the factory. Where is the documentation from Porsche for the options? If you want top dollar you should be willing to get these.
It might cost you those prices to repair and replace those items, but it would cost more than your above prices to have a shop do the paint and replace those parts here.
To sum it up, it is worth more than a car with rust and non matching numbers, less than a car with original paint and documentation.
Sorry if this bothers you, it's not a personal attack on your character. It's the questions that come up when collectables are sold.

[confused]

Just FYI - all metallic colors are 2 stage paint. Its nothing new, you can not shoot metallic flake in a single stage.

[E Sully]

FYI, yes that color needs to be 2 stage, but it is Not The Original Type or Color. It is something new for a 1973. Does it have the original paint code plate in the drivers door post? Yes it matters to someone buying a collectable. What it would cost to repaint it in the original Yellow, which would be a single stage. Originality counts, kind of how you state in one post that you like the solid tensioners over the pressure fed so that it looks original. I have the pressure fed in now, but I do have the original mag covers and tensioners in case I want to return it to stock.
There is no reason to take offense at these questions, it's part of what comes with selling unique vehicles. From what I see in the market I have my opinions. My car needs some work to bring it up from the good driver shape it is in now and I know about what it costs to restore it and it is not cheap.
Want to change my opinion, get the necessary documentaion. From what I have read from your posts here and on Early'S' Registry you take your business very seriously. That is a good thing. You don't like my opinion, but such is life. I do wish you well and hope both you and the future buyer are satisfied when it sells.

[techweenie]

Mark brings up a point that's often overlooked. I call it the 'butt gauge.'

It is possible for a 35+ year old car to be tight and solid. Easier if a coupe, tougher if a Targa. I tell the people I advise on 911 purchases to step up the offer if the car has an extraordinarily solid feel. Just 3 months ago, I test drove a '73 S Targa for a prospect and advised him to pay what many armchair critics here would consider "over market" because the car just felt, literaly, new. My client did buy the car and as he was having some details looked at by a highly reputable shop, they all remarked on how little the chassis flexed on the lift. And you could feel it on the road. I'd call that a 95th percentile Targa.

If the car doesn't feel tight, it's not likely you can ever 'put it back.' So yes, the claim that good driving cars are worth more stands up in my opinion.

[wgwollet]

It's sometime tuff to comment on cars because it would not be fair to the seller, and some sellers are on this forum.

But asking on the other hand is very smart, but the experts on here know the cars well and sometimes speak of issues that might not be a issue for you.

My take is be patient, read about the long hoods. I own a 1973.5 and they are very reliable and fun to drive. Most people make a mistake and try to find a car below market value, then find it's not a good car. It's possible to get a good deal but they are getting very rare.

Here is what to do.
1) Buy a matching numbers car (car is just worth more period.)
2) original color code ( a repaint could be a deal breaker on value)
3) no rust ( be careful, maybe you can live with a little, but repair costs are high)

Ok, I almost bought a 1973 Targa last week, no rust, correct engine, but wrong color.
If color doesn't bother you it can be nice, but he just wanted too much $ for me to do a repaint.


In order of importance 1) body no rust 2) interior correct 3) engine

[confused]

I won't rub it in but the wisdom of the crowd that was stating my car was flat out not worth that much...

Wrong

[E Sully]

Mark,
Congratulations, I am glad you got a good price for the car. Seeing what people are willing to pay for a model of car like mine that needs work to bring it back to original makes me happy I own one. I just hope people who buy cars realize the expenses involed in restoring a car and very few come out ahead if they buy it for an investment.
Regards,
Ed