Ugh! Pano just arrived with some really whacked(?) valuations

[Christien]

The Excellence numbers seem much more in line with what I've noticed in the market over the last 5 or so years - an increase leading up to the recession, then a sharp correction in the market, with values for my car peaking in the high 20s/low 30s. Honestly, there's just no way I could sell my car for $65k. Not even close.

[super9064]

I think the valuations are fairly accurate, and are in line with what I have bought and sold cars for recently, and have observed. Something to keep in mind that there are a lot of early 911s that have been repainted poorly, wrong color, crappy body work, wrong interiors, wrong engines........... Point is, the valuations given assume original cars, reasonable wear, but correct parts, matching numbers. Obviously a person should make a deduction, for everything that needs to be corrected.

[Christien]

I figure my car is worth 20-25k. It has a 10-footer paint job, a transplanted engine and updated seats, however I have the original #s matching engine and seats, all of which would need to be rebuilt. Engine rebuild @ $10K + paint job @ $10K + rebuild seats @$5k still doesn't bring my car anywhere near $65k.

[Unobtanium-inc]

Originally Posted by super9064

I think the valuations are fairly accurate, and are in line with what I have bought and sold cars for recently, and have observed. Something to keep in mind that there are a lot of early 911s that have been repainted poorly, wrong color, crappy body work, wrong interiors, wrong engines........... Point is, the valuations given assume original cars, reasonable wear, but correct parts, matching numbers. Obviously a person should make a deduction, for everything that needs to be corrected.

While I do agree with this point, I think one of the biggest problems with this line of reasoning in general is the fact that the percentage of cars that are original, matching numbers, original color, etc. represents a fairly small minority of early 911s being traded. This means that the published valuations are only accurate to a small percentage of both the buying and selling public. That's fine, except these articles usually fail to strongly say what constitutes a car in this valuation category. In other words, if the first thing they said was, "these values apply to an original, matching numbers example without color changes, etc." the published charts would be more useful. As it stands they are used as a value reference for sellers who are overvaluing their mismatched cars AND by uneducated buyers who grossly overpay for the same cars. Based on the fact that the original cars are in the minority, I feel that publishing these values based solely on these examples makes for a pretty useless piece of work. If they wanted to do it right, they would calculate ranges based on things like paint work, matching engines, and mods. -- Matt

[techweenie]

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Quote de <strong>super9064</strong>
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<div style="font-style:italic">I think the valuations are fairly accurate, and are in line with what I have bought and sold cars for recently, and have observed. Something to keep in mind that there are a lot of early 911s that have been repainted poorly, wrong color, crappy body work, wrong interiors, wrong engines........... Point is, the valuations given assume original cars, reasonable wear, but correct parts, matching numbers. Obviously a person should make a deduction, for everything that needs to be corrected.</div>
</div>While I do agree with this point, I think one of the biggest problems with this line of reasoning in general is the fact that the percentage of cars that are original, matching numbers, original color, etc. represents a fairly small minority of early 911s being traded. This means that the published valuations are only accurate to a small percentage of both the buying and selling public. That's fine, except these articles usually fail to strongly say what constitutes a car in this valuation category. In other words, if the first thing they said was, "these values apply to an original, matching numbers example without color changes, etc." the published charts would be more useful. As it stands they are used as a value reference for sellers who are overvaluing their mismatched cars AND by uneducated buyers who grossly overpay for the same cars. Based on the fact that the original cars are in the minority, I feel that publishing these values based solely on these examples makes for a pretty useless piece of work. If they wanted to do it right, they would calculate ranges based on things like paint work, matching engines, and mods. -- Matt

Very well said.

Important points. Certainly we've all shuddered to read that a car advertised for sale has had "upgrades." it can be hard telling a seller that the upgrades he spent $10K to accomplish devalued his car by $15K. But we've all seen that.

[Sunroof]

All excellent points which furthers underscores the importance of maintaining original color. As a Sepia Brown owner, I must look at how it came from the factory not changing color to the more contemporary trends which are departures from the vibrant colors of the 70's. As a Porsche owner going on 40 years now, maintaining originality is everything in these older cars.

When I bought my 73.5T the only modification which were an acceptable upgrade, or so I assume, were the oil injected tensioner's and pop-off valve. Add the CD/radio and Momo wheel I installed over the last decade and I have to wonder if the collector would frown on such changes. Heck, I even opted for a rebuilt CDI unit over the more modern MSD recently.

[techweenie]

The "bad" upgrades I'm referring to are "update" bumpers, flares,black-out trim etc. A Momo wheel or newer radio are easily-reversed changes neutralized by holding on to the original parts. Even things as in-your-face as the "S" type bumper on a pre- '72 911 can be reversible if the original part is retained. Just be aware that most of the population is unable to visualize...

The pressure-fed tensioner upgrade is a wobbler for me. 930 tensioners with collars get you even better reliability with no visible changes. For a concours/concours candidate car, that would be my preferred route.

[PropellerHead]

I've struggled with this conundrum many times with my own car. It is a 'low mile' (58k miles now) numbers matching 911T non-sunroof coupe in good driver condition with a wonderful patina interior (original, no speaker cut-outs, original radio, door panels, pockets, etc) and an old re-paint in the original metallic silver. Eventually I will do a quality re-paint (no color change) and address the few very minor spots of superficial rust. A thorough inspection proves no accidents, no prior rust repair and no need for significant metal work. In short it is an honest, well documented car missing only the original A/C compressor when I received it.

I first struggled with the wheels. It came to me with Mahle gas burners with what looked to be correct date codes, spare, etc. All indications pointed to these being original equipment. However; the COA doesn't show the Mahle wheels as original to the car. I couldn't verify with the previous owner what was original because A) he wasn't the original owner and B) he couldn't remember any conversation to that effect from 1975 when he bought the car. Those wheels were of no use to me, too narrow and not per my desires despite their rarity. I wanted Fuchs on the car, regardless of what it came with. It now wears 16x7 Fuchs, not correct for a '71 911T, I know, but I like them. I'm sure this would de-value but as a true bolt-on modification could be corrected without too much drama/expense.

Next was suspension:
I use this car on the street and on the track where it is so much fun. When I refurbished the suspension, it received poly-bronze bushings. Not original equipment but unseen (largely) and a nice, worthwhile upgrade. Same with torsion bars - the car has hollow, larger diameter bars front and rear. At the same time I put adjustable spring plates on the rear for ride height/corner weight adjustability. I installed 'S' brakes up front and restored a set of adjustable Koni struts as an upgrade. I also installed sway bars front/rear. Unfortunately these are aftermarket pieces and look it (Tarret with red/gold anodizing don't look very correct!). But the drivability of the car improved so much I can't imagine this degrades the value for these bolt-on upgrades.
I kept the original parts and could put the old used parts back on or supply them to the next owner someday.

Now I'm working on a hotrod engine and external oil cooler. I have later model hardlines and thermostat to install. I bought a core 2.7L to build into a hotrod engine and a LS 915 gearbox, Webers, etc, etc. The intent is to remove and properly store the well sorted, excellent running, 'low mile' powertrain and plug-in the upgrade. With all the original bits and installed upgrades such as engine, gearbox, suspension yet with an original interior, exterior and all trim. Have I adversely affected value by this? Or have I added to the value?

Thanks,
Chet

[vracer]

Chet,
It completely depends on your target audience. For a 'track' audience you may have improved it. For a 'street' audience, IMO you have decreased the value. But it is YOUR car, and the number things we get to build the way we think they should be is rather limited in this world. Didn't someone make a lot of money one time on a song called, "I did it my way"?

[mobius911]

Originally Posted by vracer

Chet,
It completely depends on your target audience. For a 'track' audience you may have improved it. For a 'street' audience, IMO you have decreased the value. But it is YOUR car, and the number things we get to build the way we think they should be is rather limited in this world. Didn't someone make a lot of money one time on a song called, "I did it my way"?

Well put. For a car of such low miles I'd say you'd be better off putting it back to stock, selling it, and then buying an upgraded track-oriented car that has a 3.2, upgraded suspension, etc.

You'd maximize the value of your T, and probably be able to buy someone's track-upgraded car at probably 50 cents on the dollar from what it cost to build. You'd then most likely have money in your pocket to customize any way you want without fear of destroying an original low-mileage car.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

Have I adversely affected value by this? Or have I added to the value?

Thanks,
Chet

The only way you have added to the value is that when you sell it there will be a spare 2.7l engine and a 915 gearbox as part of the deal. You have in no way adversely affected the value on the car because everything you have done is 100% reversible and no invasive.

If you took a set of pristine patina'd doorcards and drilled them for a 6 speaker sound system, that's a hit to the value. Changing wheels, steering wheels, sway bars, etc, really don't alter it permanently. You didn't put in coilovers and a cage. You didn't put impact bumpers on a longnose. You just refined the car a bit for your usage and especially if you keep any parts you removed, it doesn't hurt a thing.

Furthermore, you sound like the kind of guy who documents things. Logging the mileage on the original engine and gearbox when they come out and adding it to a binder full of pictures, reciepts and notes with dates is the kind of thing that will make your car easy to sell if the day you want to get out of it ever comes.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

The only way you have added to the value is that when you sell it there will be a spare 2.7l engine and a 915 gearbox as part of the deal. You have in no way adversely affected the value on the car because everything you have done is 100% reversible and no invasive.

If you took a set of pristine patina'd doorcards and drilled them for a 6 speaker sound system, that's a hit to the value. Changing wheels, steering wheels, sway bars, etc, really don't alter it permanently. You didn't put in coilovers and a cage. You didn't put impact bumpers on a longnose. You just refined the car a bit for your usage and especially if you keep any parts you removed, it doesn't hurt a thing.

Furthermore, you sound like the kind of guy who documents things. Logging the mileage on the original engine and gearbox when they come out and adding it to a binder full of pictures, reciepts and notes with dates is the kind of thing that will make your car easy to sell if the day you want to get out of it ever comes.

Thanks Matt!
You have me pegged pretty well. Not only with a binder of photos/receipts but also a blog of my work on the car and TONS of project photos. I've been very careful to not permanently alter the car (welding in a cage or cutting holes, etc). My tweaks have been bolt-on and I've kept virtually everything I've un-bolted. It is (and will remain) a 'sleeper' as it doesn't look any different than it did originally except for the wheels and ride height. I'll keep the Durant mirror, original 'S' trim, etc. as it was delivered.

[PropellerHead]

Originally Posted by mobius911

Well put. For a car of such low miles I'd say you'd be better off putting it back to stock, selling it, and then buying an upgraded track-oriented car that has a 3.2, upgraded suspension, etc.

You'd maximize the value of your T, and probably be able to buy someone's track-upgraded car at probably 50 cents on the dollar from what it cost to build. You'd then most likely have money in your pocket to customize any way you want without fear of destroying an original low-mileage car.

Jeff,
You're correct that perhaps financially I would be 'better off' but I enjoy the project, wrenching and learning aspect far more than just driving the end result. To build something vs. buying something carries a lot of value to me and I enjoy the challenge of keeping my costs low, spreading them over a long period of time and doing it myself.
Besides, I've purchased 'smart' and invested my time to restore good used parts instead of buying new in nearly all cases. Looking at my complete tracking of expenses through ownership and upgrades, I couldn't go buy a car like mine for what I have invested in it. And I want a longhood and a dual purpose car that is at home at the local cars & coffee as it is on the track. A back-date doesn't have the same appeal to me either but does make a lot of sense. The point is a little moot though as I don't plan on selling. I have just been curious if my efforts to conserve the originality AND upgrade are worth the effort. At some point, I may put it back to stock powertrain and put the hotrod bits into something else so I have both a nice original car and a hotrod. They are all 'bolt-ons' after all.
Chet

[Matt Monson]

Chet,
You are like me. The build and the journey with the car is as much a part of the ownership experience as actually driving the car. I'm going through this right now. I recently put up a WTT ad seeing if anyone wants to trade a '69ish 912 for my '85 Carrera. I want to get back into a longnose. But then review the list of little things I need to do to the Carrera before I am comfortable taking pictures and more aggressively marketing the car and am left feeling that if I start ticking off the punch list of to-dos that I was going to do anyway, then the car becomes mine and I am less inclined to part with it. I'd sell the car tomorrow if I got a reasonable offer. But if I put 10-15 hours into it, I'm going to want to keep it.

[mobius911]

Originally Posted by PropellerHead

Jeff,
You're correct that perhaps financially I would be 'better off' but I enjoy the project, wrenching and learning aspect far more than just driving the end result. To build something vs. buying something carries a lot of value to me and I enjoy the challenge of keeping my costs low, spreading them over a long period of time and doing it myself.
Besides, I've purchased 'smart' and invested my time to restore good used parts instead of buying new in nearly all cases. Looking at my complete tracking of expenses through ownership and upgrades, I couldn't go buy a car like mine for what I have invested in it. And I want a longhood and a dual purpose car that is at home at the local cars & coffee as it is on the track. A back-date doesn't have the same appeal to me either but does make a lot of sense. The point is a little moot though as I don't plan on selling. I have just been curious if my efforts to conserve the originality AND upgrade are worth the effort. At some point, I may put it back to stock powertrain and put the hotrod bits into something else so I have both a nice original car and a hotrod. They are all 'bolt-ons' after all.
Chet

I don't disagree with your view at all. I can't tell from your original post whether the hotrod engine is going to be upgrading the current one or buying/building a new one. Buying/building a new one would be fantastic as it would preserve your low-mileage original. Miles on the motor is one thing you can't undue. As you and others have noted, everything else can be undone as well. Go for it!

[PropellerHead]

The hotrod motor will be built
On a core 7R case. I have a complete donor 2.7L and 915. Literally, the original engine will come out and stay intact from sorted carbs and all tin, etc. I will remove the SSI exchangers and transfer those to the new engine.
The original bits will remain as original. Mods will be on the incorrect bits.
The cost to procure the donor stuff was too cheap to pass up and was the direction I wanted to go anyway!

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Quote de <strong>PropellerHead</strong>
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<div style="font-style:italic">Jeff,<br>
You're correct that perhaps <i>financially</i> I would be 'better off' but I enjoy the project, wrenching and learning aspect far more than just driving the end result. To build something vs. buying something carries a lot of value to me and I enjoy the challenge of keeping my costs low, spreading them over a long period of time and doing it myself.<br>
Besides, I've purchased 'smart' and invested my time to restore good used parts instead of buying new in nearly all cases. Looking at my complete tracking of expenses through ownership and upgrades, I couldn't go buy a car like mine for what I have invested in it. And I want a longhood and a dual purpose car that is at home at the local cars &amp; coffee as it is on the track. A back-date doesn't have the same appeal to me either but does make a lot of sense. The point is a little moot though as I don't plan on selling. I have just been curious if my efforts to conserve the originality AND upgrade are worth the effort. At some point, I may put it back to stock powertrain and put the hotrod bits into something else so I have both a nice original car and a hotrod. They are all 'bolt-ons' after all.<br>
Chet</div>
</div>I don't disagree with your view at all. I can't tell from your original post whether the hotrod engine is going to be upgrading the current one or buying/building a new one. Buying/building a new one would be fantastic as it would preserve your low-mileage original. Miles on the motor is one thing you can't undue. As you and others have noted, everything else can be undone as well. Go for it!