Wow! $10000 Flip to fellow Pelicans!

[WANNA930]

Silbur we will all wait for the day when you post a car for sale as it will be for sale at a great price as you will sell for it less then you purchased.

No, I do not have the time to review every word written and again like everyone else have no idea where you one sided crusade is coming form?

There is no talk about misleading anyone. Some is simply selling a car for a profit. If it is a dealer or someone who posts cars regularly I can see your side as they are taking advantage and should pay for advertising space if available. Then again from what I see dealers regularly post in the for sale section.

Great site and I guess your intentions are good but you have to take it easy. If there was a problem with Wayne I think they would disappear. No need to insult people as that isn't called for on a free site either.

I think the whole I hate flipper nonsense started with BAT and their henchmen who hate anyone who sells a car no matter if they dumped 2x into it 5 years later for more money then they paid.

Lets get to the real problem...people who post cars for sale with NO price. Well maybe that is the way to go?

[WANNA930]

By the way a good buy can be at either the original or so called flipped price. It is the price that the buyer feels was a good deal. This is of course considering not getting ripped off thinking a car is an "S" only to be a "E"

[geshaghi]

I still find this thread, which borders on a rant at times, mildly humorous.

Eric, I'm curious how you define a flipper, as it isn't clear to me who (or what) is getting you so riled up and how you might define this term? I'm not sure if your objections are targeted specifically at flippers (and if so, how you might define this putative group) or to anyone who sells here with the intention of making a profit, or something else.

[crackertoo]

I am completely baffled at your disdain for what you call "flippers" - each state sets limits on the number of vehicle transactions that an "individual" can perform within a 12 month period without obtaining a dealers license.

The more I read it appears highly personal to you...maybe you bought vehicle at "fair market value" but found out someone had paid less just prior. Something obviously has motivated you to drill down/lash out at a so-called flipper. If not, you come across as Barney Fife attempting to classify, attack and substantiate your claims. You have mentioned Wayne by name serveral times...has he asked you to do this? Is he feeling cheated by the "flipper"? Maybe you are simply being his voice - if so, I think it would carry weight only if he himself were speaking.

In the example provided in the first post (if I understand it correctly), the poster (it doesn't clearly state that 6300rpm is the previous owner so this may not be the case) sold his 930 to the highest bidder on EBAY (read national audience) for a decent price. Then the "new owner" presented the car for sale to a group of enthusiasts (Pelican) for a higher price. I'm assuming the car had to be transported from Maryland to Miami and who knows what to prepare for sale.

What is "flipped" in this transaction is the "process" of the acquisition/sale. Typically, a flipped car goes from low-exposure (acquired) to high-exposure (ebay/national footprint). This one has been reversed.

To me, it appears the original poster is miffed at (and attempting to undermine) a buyer who fairly paid significant money to the poster (and marketed on a national promoting stage). That to me is shameful on his/her part. If he can show that he was "forced" or "tricked" to sell his car to the highest bidder, he then might have a "weak" case at best. It appears he is not accepting responsibility for his own marketing failures and now is selfish/vindictive enough to try to "stain" the one person who committed to pay him the most for his 930. Very, very disappointing to see how some people process things.

On a last note. I do not know AL, but I have seen his cars for sale here on Pelican. They seem to nearly always be vintage 930 stuff. He obviously has an eye for quality and value. He appears to be doing a service to the community as what I've have seen looks like authentic, clean 930's and priced fairly. I do not own a 930 and nor do I want one. Happy New Years as I'm officially opting out of this tread after clearing my conscious on this ridiculous matter. I can't believe I gave this 10 more minutes of my valuable life. Good grief!

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

No, it isn't.

But nobody is talking about merely selling a car at a profit.

I have specifically been talking about flippers. Which is a subset of the folks who sell cars at a profit.

The screwy part is where folks don't actually read what's being posted, but pretend something else is being said.

[Sox Fan]

I am amazed this thread has gone on so long. A couple simple thoughts:

1. Flipping by itself is just capitalism. A good flipper has to work hard to find deals, have cash to buy, take some risk and work to market the product. Just like any other business. I would really struggle to understand anyone who thinks flipping cars is inherently wrong. It's just one aspect of the used car business.

2. Using a site like this to flip is an interesting moral question. But not a practical one. How exactly would you enforce a "no flippers" rule? No way to do that efficiently.

Let's move on.

[johnvan8]

I went & looked at the sticky forum guidelines in the Cars-for-sale section and this is what it says:
“Effective February 1st, 2006, replies to threads can only be posted by the original poster. Interested parties, please use PM's and email to contact sellers. Sellers, make sure you have email notification of new PM's enabled so that you're alerted when someone tries to contact you -- or better yet, put your email address and/or phone number in your post. Otherwise, the same guidelines apply. Sellers, the better job you do describing your car and the more pictures you post, the easier it will be to sell your car. Be sure to include your location. No more than two for sale posts at any given time, no bumping posts more than once every three days, and threads that have been bumped five times or more may be closed. Multiple user accounts for the same person / business are not allowed. And finally, Porsches only. The change appears to be working well. Looks like we'll be sticking with it for now... UPDATE: It's time to do away with trade posts. For one, nobody ever ends up actually trading. It's an improbable marketing strategy -- indeed, money was invented thousands of years ago precisely to do away with the inefficiencies associated with bartering. So, if you have a car, motorcycle, etc, that you want to trade for a Porsche, what you should do is trade your item for money, and then trade your money for a Porsche. effective 1/5/2010: all for sale items must have an asking price and seller's location listed.”
It’s pretty clear from those guidelines that dealers/flippers are allowed and pricing is left to the market to decide. So, like I said earlier, I don’t see what the big problem is? Looks like some people are just pi$$ed off that someone else got a good deal.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by WANNA930

Silbur we will all wait for the day when you post a car for sale as it will be for sale at a great price as you will sell for it less then you purchased.

No, I do not have the time to review every word written and again like everyone else have no idea where you one sided crusade is coming form?

LOL, I love it when you ask a question that's already been answered, and then attempt to impugn any future sales in complete ignorance of what I have written, and then go on to admit that you haven't even bothered to read what was written previously!

The capper is that you "have no idea where I'm coming from" but if you had bothered to read pretty much ANY of my posts in this thread, you could have figured it out.

You don't have time to read the posts, but you do have time to post some really dumb stuff and make yourself look foolish. [shakes head]

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Sox Fan

1. Flipping by itself is just capitalism. A good flipper has to work hard to find deals, have cash to buy, take some risk and work to market the product. Just like any other business. I would really struggle to understand anyone who thinks flipping cars is inherently wrong. It's just one aspect of the used car business.

2. Using a site like this to flip is an interesting moral question. But not a practical one. How exactly would you enforce a "no flippers" rule? No way to do that efficiently.

Your second point addresses your first point. I think that ethically, you avoid flipping a car on a website that caters more to a hobbyist audience. I think there is a very good reason that a flipper pulls a car out of a wide-audience format and pulls it into a narrow-audience format. A good business reason - to take advantage of the "community feel" of the narrower audience.

Personally, I do not oppose flipping, for all the reasons you offer. I do oppose flipping on PP, for all the reasons I've mentioned. And no, as a practical matter, you can't prevent it by adding more rules. The only thing to help slow it down if for folks to recognize the flip and make it public. As I wrote previously, more information is better.

[techweenie]

Although my priority is to "matchmake" buyers to sellers, I have flipped cars in the past. I typically do not buy with flipping in mind, it just sometimes follows. If I were to buy a car advertised on Pelican, I would not advertise it on Pelican -- for all the reasons outlined above.

However, the Internet being what it is, putting a car up for sale anywhere will cause someone to flag it for the online Porsche communities.

Finally, if a car is advertised on Pelican at a price that supports flipping (significantly under market) this part of the BBS will light up and the seller will get a swarm of PMs.

IOW, the internet is making the market better at self-correcting and self-policing.

[Sox Fan]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

Your second point addresses your first point. I think that ethically, you avoid flipping a car on a website that caters more to a hobbyist audience. I think there is a very good reason that a flipper pulls a car out of a wide-audience format and pulls it into a narrow-audience format. A good business reason - to take advantage of the "community feel" of the narrower audience.

Personally, I do not oppose flipping, for all the reasons you offer. I do oppose flipping on PP, for all the reasons I've mentioned. And no, as a practical matter, you can't prevent it by adding more rules. The only thing to help slow it down if for folks to recognize the flip and make it public. As I wrote previously, more information is better.

All fair points.

[Car9]

Hi Pelican fellows. 911coop is Vertex auto in Miami who doesn't have a very good reputation in Florida. Worst of all Gilbert Meza, co-owner, in charge of all the mechanical side. Alvaro (Al) works there and he is in charge of selling parts and cars.
I personally don't have problem with the fact that they made $10,000 (or what ever), on a sale, but in my opinion a forum is made for amateurs while they are professionals taking advantage of us and twisting the main idea of this forum.
Shouldn't be a limit on the number of sales made by each user? Thanks.
Charles 239 4000550

[pdqcarrera]

Originally Posted by geshaghi

I don't get the disdain. What is wrong with someone making money by selling a car? Last I checked, we were still a free market capitalist society here in the USA.

+1 Amen.

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by Car9

Hi Pelican fellows. 911coop is Vertex auto in Miami who doesn't have a very good reputation in Florida. Worst of all Gilbert Meza, co-owner, in charge of all the mechanical side. Alvaro (Al) works there and he is in charge of selling parts and cars.
I personally don't have problem with the fact that they made $10,000 (or what ever), on a sale, but in my opinion a forum is made for amateurs while they are professionals taking advantage of us and twisting the main idea of this forum.
Shouldn't be a limit on the number of sales made by each user? Thanks.
Charles 239 4000550

I think a limit would be a good idea. After 5 a year you are classed as a trader and marked as such. Also if a company is using Pelican then it should be marked as so. Similar to a trade marked add or private ad on auto trader.

The same applies to parts IMHO.

[schumicat]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[brisboats]

^^^^ that is just funny^^^^^^

Better than my response of..."every time I flip a car it is usually totaled by the insurance company"

B