What to do when I see a bad deal getting advertised here

[pyite20v]

Hey guys.

I noticed a car today that was posted as a good running car for sale. Its the same car I saw a pelican post two weeks ago that it had a bad engine.

The current seller bought the car, and is now posting it for more than the previous seller sold it for.

I am 95% sure this is a scam flip and someone is going to end up with a crappy car if they aren't careful.

As a community what is our responsibility here? Do i post a Buyer Beware post with the info that I have, or let it slide and hope no one else gets the short end of the stick?

[6300 RPMs]

Originally Posted by pyite20v

Hey guys.

I noticed a car today that was posted as a good running car for sale. Its the same car I saw a pelican post two weeks ago that it had a bad engine.

The current seller bought the car, and is now posting it for more than the previous seller sold it for.

I am 95% sure this is a scam flip and someone is going to end up with a crappy car if they aren't careful.

As a community what is our responsibility here? Do i post a Buyer Beware post with the info that I have, or let it slide and hope no one else gets the short end of the stick?

Out him and let the Pelican community know as most hate flippers anyways. It will end up on fleabay.

[Matt Monson]

How do you know that he didn't have a good engine to put in?
Or how do you know he didn't fix the existing engine?
Half a dozen years ago I bought a non-running 70. I was led to believe that it had several things wrong. The price was right and I took my chances. Paid off in spades. The shop that had diagnosed it was staffed with idiots. Just the fuel pump was unplugged.

I plugged it in, put fresh gas in, jumped it and drove off into the sunset.

Beware of making accusations that you cannot prove.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

How do you know that he didn't have a good engine to put in?
Or how do you know he didn't fix the existing engine?
Half a dozen years ago I bought a non-running 70. I was led to believe that it had several things wrong. The price was right and I took my chances. Paid off in spades. The shop that had diagnosed it was staffed with idiots. Just the fuel pump was unplugged.

I plugged it in, put fresh gas in, jumped it and drove off into the sunset.

Beware of making accusations that you cannot prove.

As much as I hate flippers, I agree.

BUT - there is nothing wrong with posting the ads side-by-side and asking how the current owner fixed the previous problem.

Asking questions is great. Let the answers speak for themselves.

[MrBMW2002]

I believe I just spoke with the thread starter on the phone and I am the one that post it talking about. I have nothing to hide and would like to explain to make sure there are no hard feelings.
1.) Yes, I did buy a car sight unseen on this board. The early 911 market is crazy at the moment and has been on the rise for some time. Due to the fact that I did not want to lose the car I did not get a PPI, or even inspect the car in person before I bought it. I simply made a smooth hassle free transaction as per the seller request. I am very happy with the purchase and feel is was a very good deal. The car is probably worth more in parts.
2.) I did buy this car just for the engine conversion. I have an early 72 longhood I was going to put the engine and transmission into, however after close inspection of the longhood it is going to require more bodywork than I wanted to pay.
3.) I did advertise this car for more than what I paid for. However, I wanted to make sure I would be able to negotiate. Some consider it a flip, some say I bought it right or perhaps the market is still going up on these great cars. If I lose money or break even on it then so be it. I am open to offers.
4.) The owner did mention the car burnt some oil, however I have never brought the car to a proper mechanic to diagnosis it. From the short time I drove this car it is a fantastic driver that is a blast to drive. It does not show any symptoms of a “bad” engine.
5.) I welcome all PPI by any shop to make sure buyer is happy with the car. Some shops as we know say the car is in top mechanical shape, while others may not. That is why I will allow the buyer to bring it to the shop that they trust.

I can understand how people dislike flippers, dealers, etc. However, this car was bought for a longhood conversion project that is never going to happen. I truly appreciate the pelican community and hope I do not get ousted from it.

Thanks,
Brad

[techweenie]

I think Brad's posting clears things up.

I've had a few smaller dealings with him and found him to be a straight shooter.

But to the OP: that's the right thing to do. We do need to look out for each other here. Tens of thousands of dollars have been lost on this forum over the years, unfortunately, though less-than-honest deals.

[racerboyrt]

Lets see the posts side by side so we can all speculate and judge from behind our computer screens!

[1968SWTs]

If it only were a 75 !! I bet it could get a BAR sticker if someone just invested the time with a ref and all the missing pieces .. But outside California it has great potential.

Nice of pyite20v to care about a buyer getting a bad deal like a few rust buckets on here, and my mom buying a car with sawdust in the cracked block when she was 18. I have met mrbmw2002 in the past and he is trustworthy and his post should clear it up (it is accurate)

The original posting is still available online and the post agrees with that. A 3.6 conversion is VERY expensive compared to a 3.2 conversion - you can spend $6,000 for an engine, $500 for a patrick flywheel for the 915 (unlike the bolt in 3.2), $1600 in clutch parts, $200 custom crossmember, custom sheet metal (call it $200?) ..and that tranny is worth $3,000+ and the quaife , custom headers with heat have got to be at least $1,000 - all of that and the mocal cooler and "bluebird" bumper, oil lines would have gone into his longhood - call it $12,500 total for the parts for his longhood. He took a risk by buying without eyes and PPI, then paying for shipping. With a free car with it, then $1200 in head work at a machine shop plus $1,000 labor
The prior owner simply said :

"engine likely needs valve guides as oil consumption has gone up. Anyway, my wife tells me that it has to go"

- so actually a flipper would have been perfect - someone willing to roll the dice versus endless tire kickers.


btw, to Matt's point above - my softy was determined to have a bad engine because the local Porsche "expert" thought a loose rocker arm boss was a rod knock. After a carb rebuild (and the rocker arm repair) it has been running extremely well for a year and a half.

[comintern]

Please, car salesmen have reps lower than lawyers for a reason. Misrepresenting cars for sale has to be the most frequently committed crime in this country after smoking pot.
Com

[trader220]

Originally Posted by comintern

Please, car salesmen have reps lower than lawyers for a reason. Misrepresenting cars for sale has to be the most frequently committed crime in this country after smoking pot.
Com

Wow I feel great. I spent 20 years as a floor trader on several exchanges. I had had my fill in 20 years and I wanted to be in the car business where I am now. If I had only completed my law degree I would have the trifecta of bad reputations.

For the record in 20 years as a trader both on and off the floor I never once had a rules violation not even a foul language or dress code violation!! I sleep like a baby at night.

[pyite20v]

Im really not trying to put anyone in a bad spot here, and want to give the bennifit of doubt, but heres what I see.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/735107-1976-911-targa-hot-rod.html

This is the original post, which has now been deleted. The car was for sale for $14K, and in the ad it specifically said "Car has low compression in cylinder #6, and definitely needs a valve job" I also talked to the original owner who said he made it very clear about the cars issues to the buyer, saying it uses 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles and probably needs a rebuild, and thats why he sold it for so cheap.

here is the MrBMW2002s post
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/737397-fs-1976-911-3-6-conversion.html
"This car is an excellent running/driving car."

When I talked to him, he said he didnt do a PPI, but had the car brought up to CA, and then changed his mind. He said he driven the car a total of 3 miles. He also said he bought the car a month or two ago, but then later changed that story when I pointed out the ad was only posted two weeks ago. He also said the original owner never said anything about the engine other than "it burned a little oil". He said the engine was in excellent shape, but did say he would take it to a shop for me to have checked out.

So basically, he bought a car that was represented as having an engine that needs work for $14K or less, brought it up to CA, and now is selling it as a excellent engine for $18K. That to me does not sit right. It would be one thing to make money off of someone thats selling something for cheaper than they know its worth, but to change your advertisement to represent it as something thats good - thats just wrong, and I believe in our community we owe it other members to call that out when we see it. This forum is to help each other out, not to make money off of someone that trusts another member's word.

Again I have not seen the engine so I don't really know its condition, Im just putting the info out there so anyone else can be wary. I really hope someone doesnt get burned on this, because its happened to me and I know how much that sucks.

[techweenie]

If the original post is correct, driving a car 3 miles after a long "sleep" will not get you good compression readings, or provide a good basis for engine diagnosis.

One quart per 1000 miles is less than 1/2 the oil consumption Porsche deems acceptable. Lots of Porsches leak that much...

Having said that, the deal has enough hair on it that I'd want a mechanic to vet the engine.

[Six Gun]

Originally Posted by comintern

please, car salesmen have reps lower than lawyers for a reason. Misrepresenting cars for sale has to be the most frequently committed crime in this country after smoking pot.
Com

smoking pot is a crime???

[johnvan8]

Only if you inhale...

[Matt Monson]

Not here in Colorado it isn't.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by pyite20v

This forum is to help each other out, not to make money off of someone that trusts another member's word.

This is my main beef with flippers. It's not the fact that they are trying to make a few bucks - heck, I've done that myself here on Pelican. I've also lost a little money here and there on parts/pieces. But still, it's REALLY hard to tell the difference between someone who had an idea to get into a project, then changed his mind (oh, and BTW, is selling the parts at a small profit to himself) and a person who deliberately buys stuff that might have been discounted originally for a reason, then marks it up all the while pretending to be someone trying to get out ofrom under a project/needs room/wants to start a business/looking to upgrade Porsche stable, etc, etc.

[996AE]

Flipper representing himself as private party two owner car for sale.

My recent story.

After a long discussion with the seller I flew from LA to Chattanooga to meet the owner and pick up the PPI and inspect the car myself.

David Bishop a Pelican member represented the car as original, including paint accept radio and exhaust.

1. After a close inspection it was clear the car had been painted on 3-4 corners.
2. David had removed the 9 inch Fuchs standard from the factory in 87 and added 8s. Forgot to mention this. Oh, he had the 9 in his garage for another car project.
3. The two owner CA was actually from CO (had one service in CA) and had spent 20 plus years in TN.
4. David wasnt the second owner as advertised he bought the car as a flipper and was fixing it up to sell it. David is the 3rd owner. Forgot to mention this.
5. one plus inch dash crack unrepairable.

The worst news is after the undisclosed paint story I asked for my 500.00 deposit back. He agreed and first said he mailed a check to me. A week later I hadnt received it so i asked again. This time David Bishop said he mailed cash and I should have it any day now.

Well, I received an empty envelope, no return address from Chattanooga.

Buyers beware of David Bishop.

[1968SWTs]

pyite20v has cool skateboard decks by the way - 914, RS4, double cab pickup, 72 911 - I wish photos were up of his 72 targa, and I wish I had his old A/c and door cards and pockets :-)

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

This is my main beef with flippers. It's not the fact that they are trying to make a few bucks - heck, I've done that myself here on Pelican. I've also lost a little money here and there on parts/pieces. But still, it's REALLY hard to tell the difference between someone who had an idea to get into a project, then changed his mind (oh, and BTW, is selling the parts at a small profit to himself) and a person who deliberately buys stuff that might have been discounted originally for a reason, then marks it up all the while pretending to be someone trying to get out ofrom under a project/needs room/wants to start a business/looking to upgrade Porsche stable, etc, etc.

Do you remember about 6 years ago a guy put up a post on Pelican saying he was stocking up on 1972 and 73 911s -- maybe buying 10 of them -- to "pay for his kids' college" and ended up buying 30-40 of them and flipping under multiple names.

That's where I agree with Silber -- be a man. You want to buy the car and do a better job of marketing it, say so. Sellers will still sell under market for an easy no-recourse sale, which is what flippers offer.

[Matt Monson]

I'm not too fond of flippers who see an underpriced car, grab it and immediately put it back to market. And doubly so if they harvest some cherry parts like sport seats or deep 6's and destroy something that was still original.

But if a car has been on mothballs for a decade and a guy rebuilds the carbs, cleans the gas tank, changes the fluids, gives it a tune up and restores it to road going condition then I think he deserves some compensation for his time and "materials".

That '70 I mention above was bought to drive. I kept it for about a year. Then the market took off and I needed some money for my business. I paid $1k for it and sold it for close to $10k. I feel no remorse for making a profit on that car. I was just in the right place at the right time.