Want an Olive Green 911SC?

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by blau911

Colb - agreed
Christiank - my previous post asked for "factory" sources regarding the 188hp. You just posted the pages from another private source.

Sorry, my online connection to Porsche AG is down today.

[mreid]

Green? That mess is purple and "rust"ic. Doesn't matter what color it was originally. As an SC, you will not get your money back with what it would take to restore. Best bet is to part it out and sell the tub. Unless...you plan on owning it forever and money doesn't matter.

[COLB]

Doesn't matter what color it was originally.

Now, maybe not much. But had this car been originally red, it wouldn't get two glances. And in ten years?

History of other classic cars says it will matter.

And before you argue "they made too many SCs for them ever to be valuable" etc.,

Ford made 559,451 Mustangs in 1965 alone. That is more than all the 911s built in any generation combined.

The 73,000+ Convertibles they made in 1965 is more than all the SCs that Porsche built. And they made even more fastbacks: 77,079.

A relatively common '65 289 convertible with a 3-speed in very good shape, but not original or concours condition, sells for more than all but the most exceptional SCs.

Those who are convinced that "the bubble" is a passing phenomena, perhaps driven by an exceptionally cold winter (PML) are probably wrong. No doubt there will be ups and downs with the US economy, and short term price corrections, but the market fundamentals for Porsches are pretty sound in terms of supply and demand.

[whiterabbit]

Originally Posted by COLB

In starting the thread my question was whether any combination of colors/options on a non-special edition impact bumper car is approaching the point where serious restoration is an option.

I think the answer to this is yes. There are lots of rare colored impact bumper cars getting full restorations in Europe now. This car would be a potential candidate. This car fully restored may be worth 40k plus. Even CPR are starting look at these cars to restore in the US. Problem with this specific car is I am not sure if you can restore for 50k. If someone wants a keeper in this color then I doubt they will find another however so it may be worth it to a specific individual. No question certain colors make an 911 way more valuable and add a large premium. Having said that I would rather buy this car if I wanted a rare green one just restored:

http://angebote.autoscout24.de/Porsche-911-32-1989-G50-Benzin-Gr%C3%BCn-245281324

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by COLB

Now, maybe not much. But had this car been originally red, it wouldn't get two glances. And in ten years?

History of other classic cars says it will matter.

And before you argue "they made too many SCs for them ever to be valuable" etc.,

Ford made 559,451 Mustangs in 1965 alone. That is more than all the 911s built in any generation combined.

The 73,000+ Convertibles they made in 1965 is more than all the SCs that Porsche built. And they made even more fastbacks: 77,079.

A relatively common '65 289 convertible with a 3-speed in very good shape, but not original or concours condition, sells for more than all but the most exceptional SCs.

Those who are convinced that "the bubble" is a passing phenomena, perhaps driven by an exceptionally cold winter (PML) are probably wrong. No doubt there will be ups and downs with the US economy, and short term price corrections, but the market fundamentals for Porsches are pretty sound in terms of supply and demand.

The benefit of restoring one of these cars right now is that replacement parts are plentiful and cheap. The costs will really be in the labor to get it all done right.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by SilberUrS6

The benefit of restoring one of these cars right now is that replacement parts are plentiful and cheap. The costs will really be in the labor to get it all done right.

Good point.

If/when impact bumper car prices get to the inflection point where is it a better financial prospect to restore a solid but needy car than part it out, the supply of parts will shrink quickly.

[Matt Monson]

Actually, if 356s and longnoses are any indication it will go the other way around. Guys will start to restore these cars before it is cost effective. As nos and excellent used trim and interior parts start to dry up the value of the parts themselves will rise. This in turn will increase the value of the cars because the sum of the parts has gone up.
Then a feedback loop kicks in and because the cars are getting more valuable more people will consider it financially viable to restore them. And this in turn will once more increase the value of nice parts.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by COLB

Ford made 559,451 Mustangs in 1965 alone. That is more than all the 911s built in any generation combined.

The 73,000+ Convertibles they made in 1965 is more than all the SCs that Porsche built. And they made even more fastbacks: 77,079.

A relatively common '65 289 convertible with a 3-speed in very good shape, but not original or concours condition, sells for more than all but the most exceptional SCs.

Those who are convinced that "the bubble" is a passing phenomena, perhaps driven by an exceptionally cold winter (PML) are probably wrong. No doubt there will be ups and downs with the US economy, and short term price corrections, but the market fundamentals for Porsches are pretty sound in terms of supply and demand.

COLB, what you ignore are the macro variables at play.
The very same production numbers dictated an equilibrium price 50% lower just a few years ago.
Therefore, they are not the reason why prices have spiked since, and can not be a justification for current prices.
As we've discussed, "It's the economy, stupid" that is fueling the demand side.
Any asset price that rises 50% in 2 years with no change to the fundamentals is suspect.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by christiandk

Sorry, my online connection to Porsche AG is down today.

Christian, As I suspected, you have no true source to confirm this, so I can only assume that this is your weak attempt at sarcasm.
For anyone serious about getting a straight answer, I would guess that the best place to find out for certain would be a Porsche factory technical specifications booklet for the 1980 model year. Porsche prints those booklets themselves, and they would have to be accurate.

[christiandk]

Blau, or whatever your name is. I searched for the actual brochure, but did not find it today. Will post when I do. But I dont really get why I have to document a fact that is well known to most entusiasts.

Have a nice Sunday,

Christian

Edit. I dont expect this to be good enough for the Professor, but still. Here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911_classic

[speeder]

I have such a book at home and will check it when I get there. But from memory, he is correct. 188 hp for early, ('78/'79), ROW 911SC and 204 hp for '80-'83 ROWs.

3.2 Carreras were 200hp in US cars, (214? for G50 cars), and 231 hp for ROW cars w/o US cats.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by christiandk

Blau, or whatever your name is. I searched for the actual brochure, but did not find it today. Will post when I do. But I dont really get why I have to document a fact that is well known to most entusiasts.

Have a nice Sunday,

Christian

What a weak response.
Just to clarify here, I am an enthusiast Christian too, probably more so than you if you choose to measure "enthusiast" by number of Porsche 911's I have owned, number of 911 cars I have restored, numbers of posts I have here and number of years I have been a user here.
There is a lot of misinformation posted by dilettantes on these threads. The only real sources are those of the factory, and a handful of well known collectors and highly experienced mechanics that occasionally follow these boards and provide us with reliable information about these cars through their own direct experience. You will have to excuse me if I don't take your word for it.

[christiandk]

Originally Posted by speeder

I have such a book at home and will check it when I get there. But from memory, he is correct. 188 hp for early, ('78/'79), ROW 911SC and 204 hp for '80-'83 ROWs.

3.2 Carreras were 200hp in US cars, (214? for G50 cars), and 231 hp for ROW cars w/o US cats.

Row 78, 79 was 180. Not 188 until 80.

Later US cars did probably have more than 180 as well. But the factory numbers were always 180. Maybe Porsche decided that they did not want to chalenge US import regulations.

They got higher compression in 81 as I recall. But intake runners got smaller in diameter.

Anyways.....all of them are nice cars.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by blau911

FYI, the 1978 and 1979 Euro Porsche 911SC cars had the same hp as the US ones = 180. The HP on the Euro cars was only increased from 180 to 204hp after the 1980 model year. Bottom line is there was and is no advantage to owning a pre 1981 Euro 911SC based upon performance. BTW, funny how the seller describes the milky light green olive green color as "viper" green. Wishful thinking...

Thanks for the correction. Unlike some people, I don't have much attachment to being right. I'm more interested in the right information being out there and welcome when someone sees something I say that's a mistake and gets it fixed.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Thanks for the correction. Unlike some people, I don't have much attachment to being right. I'm more interested in the right information being out there and welcome when someone sees something I say that's a mistake and gets it fixed.

HI Matt,
It may seem otherwise in reading my responses to Christian above, but I feel the same way. I am only looking for true and real facts.
The problem here is based upon contradiction in information. Some written (non-factory) sources say 180hp and others say 188hp.
This is why the question should be settled by real factory information, or a seasoned Porsche 911 engine rebuilder on these forums. Someone who has built these engines numerous times from the bottom up, and dyno'd them to confirm results.

[speeder]

I've only rebuilt one 911 engine, (my own), but I would not trust someone else to do it unless they had one hell of a reputation. I trust me over most shops.

That said, you do not need to rebuild any engines or ever dyno one to know what the factory HP specs were.

[blau911]

Originally Posted by speeder

I've only rebuilt one 911 engine, (my own), but I would not trust someone else to do it unless they had one hell of a reputation.

I am referring to names like Wayne Dempsey (our gracious host here), Steve Weiner (Rennsport), Tom Amon (Mobile Works West), Jeff Gamroth (Rothsport Racing), Bruce Elsworth (Klubsport Racing), and a few others.
Rebuilding a 911 engine can be a tricky undertaking, unless you are a seasoned engine builder. There are lots of tricks and details in disassembling and reassembling a 911 motor, and Porsche 911 motors have very specific tolerance and torque settings. I have been tempted to do it myself a few times, but due to the importance of retaining matching numbers, and the cost making even one small critical mistake, I always chose to leave it with a seasoned mechanic. If it were a 914 or VW 4 cylinder motor, I would not even hesitate to do it myself.
You are brave soul, unless you are a mechanic, or have a PHD in automotive engineering.

[Matt Monson]

Continuing off topic...
If I had a '67 S or some other special numbers matching car I would by all means use one of the guys mentioned, or one of many unnamed builders. The old skool guys who have been doing this stuff for 30 years are master craftsmen and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

That said, the 911 air cooled engine is an engineering master piece. I bought a core just so that I could rebuild one. I don't have a car for it, yet. But I want to experience this, so picked one up. I full expect it to be a very special memory.

[MrBonus]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Continuing off topic...
If I had a '67 S or some other special numbers matching car I would by all means use one of the guys mentioned, or one of many unnamed builders. The old skool guys who have been doing this stuff for 30 years are master craftsmen and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

That said, the 911 air cooled engine is an engineering master piece. I bought a core just so that I could rebuild one. I don't have a car for it, yet. But I want to experience this, so picked one up. I full expect it to be a very special memory.

That sounds like a dream. If and when you ever start the process, I look forward to reading the story of the build.

[Matt Monson]

There will be a thread in the engine forum. It's going to be a 2.5l built as what I am calling an E/S spec. Maybe 175hp on Weber 40's. will probably end up in a 914 unless I stumble on a 911 chassis in the next six months.