Po

[Bash]

How much does the previous ownership & what they used the car for effect pricing? I am not speaking to a "collector car" that only has short mileage but the more regular cars we are seeing out there 120 000 miles +.
These cars are now all approaching 30 years old, in some cases much more. Are there more gremlins in the cars that have been driven or the ones that have been used for the occasional Sunday drive?

[techweenie]

Opinions vary.

People talk about 'the seals drying out' on a car that sits a long time. But that seems like an old wives tale to me. I have had cars that have sat for 6 years and had them start after 30 minutes' work and run fine. The brake system seems the most vulnerable at that stage.

I think a car driven to full operating temperature every 90 days or so is going to be better than one that has sat for years.

But that is something you're going to take the PO's word for.

I think a car with 'normal' mileage (for a 911, 6-8K/year) is likelier to be a more reliable car. But as you say, that's 160-240K miles.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Bash

How much does the previous ownership & what they used the car for effect pricing? I am not speaking to a "collector car" that only has short mileage but the more regular cars we are seeing out there 120 000 miles +.
These cars are now all approaching 30 years old, in some cases much more. Are there more gremlins in the cars that have been driven or the ones that have been used for the occasional Sunday drive?

You have two questions that are a little bit different.

First, the ownership history and prior use is definitely going to have an effect on value. A one owner car, with extensive records that document mileage and service is going to add significant value. Especially if it demonstrates careful ownership and consistent driving.

This gets to your second point -- a car that has been driven consistently over its lifetime -- and has 120k+ miles is very likely to be more reliable and less needy than a car that has sat unused for long periods of its life -- provided the records show repair of "wear" items and regular maintenance (oil changes, trans oil changes, belts, valve adjustments, various sensors, bushings, etc).

Rubber ages, seals dry out and leak, hoses crack & fail, caliper pistons rust & seize -- these things occur with time, but are accelerated when fluids don't regularly circulate and reach operating temperature. Condensation collects, rusting internal parts, etc.

As several other posters have described, a 60k car that has been driven 1000 miles in the last 10 years is likely going to require major work once it starts getting driven, and the results of the neglect become apparent.

Another factor on how the PO used the car is track use. Most people will assume that a car that was tracked regularly is going to take a value hit, because track cars tend to be driven hard (which accelerates wear), often have significant modifications, and frequently end up hitting things.

Four point harnesses, holes/welds/bolts where roll bars/cages used to be mounted, tilted gauges, track specific mods like sold motor mounts -- things like that will be warning signs that a car has been flogged, may have worn internals, and could be bent.

However, a car with a redone suspension and performance mods to the engine might increase the value of a car, even if it had track use -- provided it is still pretty stock, sound cosmetically, and records show it is well maintained & not clapped out. (I exclude track specific builds that are essentially race cars -- their value depends entirely on the quality of the build)

All that being said, a lot of these are generalities -- and different buyers care about different things. Some don't know enough to appreciate the difference between a well maintained and a poorly maintained car, and put more value on odometer mileage (almost always dubious) than they should.

Other know, but don't care -- they may intend on doing a major overhaul anyway, and starting with a needy 80k car now is going to give them more back end value than starting with a 130k car that may actually be in better condition. The more I learn about these cars, the more I come to appreciate that point.

Mileage definitely affects peoples perception of value -- especially for first time buyers. Since they are an increasingly important part of the buying market, that shouldn't be discounted. But serious, experienced owners on this site (not me) can tell you how many "low mileage" cars are totally unverifiable, and all mileage claims should be taken with a huge grain of salt -- including the majority on Ebay.

[Bash]

these cars are made to be driven hard....
My point is with them not so much sitting round in time for seals to dry up but more just occasional use, even with some of the po's having work done. In some cars their life was either driven hard & loved or sunday drives & loved.
Some of the well to do owners that had these cars did not drive them as they were intended.
Does this effect their price?

[black_falcon]

I always try to start the test drive with the seller driving, then I can assess: how high they rev the motor when cold, how smoothly they operate gearbox and clutch, if they are a heavy braker, aggressive driver, slow down for large bumps, generally how they treat the car, etc.

Any signs of abuse or track use is usually a deal killer for me. I did almost buy an 84 Carrera two summers ago that the owner used on the track a few times, but that didn't bother me as he was the original owner who maintained the car no expenses spared. White Targa for $10.5k, got snatched up as I was scheduling the PPI. Go figure

[Tim Hanson]

black_falcon, very good advice. The seller will tell you a lot about how he treats the car, just by driving a certain way. I like your style. I'm new here, but lurking awhile. I have a crappy blue 83SC, and had O2 problems..bought Louie's connector...so know about him.

Tim H

[76_rookie]

I waiting for PML to chime in. *Anxiously waiting*.

[Matt Monson]

Flip a coin.
It is 100% dependent on who that owner is. Mileage doesn't matter much. How they drive it and how they cared for it is what matters.

Something you rarely see mentioned here is that every single front and rear suspension bushing on a 1980 911sc is going to be tired, cracked and a bit out of spec. If PO replaced them all two years ago that saves me the trouble. Worth some money in asking price to me. Certain members have compared the way these old cars drive to a late model sedan. That's tired suspension. And it is present on a 60k mi SC and a 150k mi SC, just more so on the higher mileage one. Unless the car is owned by someone who refurbished it.

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by 76_rookie

I waiting for PML to chime in. *Anxiously waiting*.

I agree with all the advice already given.
The seller is a huge part of the car's value.