An open letter to SC, 3.2 and 964 sellers

[JordanPryce]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

It's gold rush speculating. The market has moved so quickly ever Tom dick and Harry is trying to cash out. Asking is just asking. They won't get it from an informed buyer.

I personally think the key is sticking connected to the community. Tech weenie recently said he was brokering sales on 4 G50 coupes.

I totally agree. Nothing better than buying from a PCA/Pelican/Rennlist member.

[Nachtfalter]

Originally Posted by JordanPryce

I agree when you are talking about newer cars. But with classic 911's coupes have always been in higher demand than cabs.

1989 Porsche 911 | Hagerty

Hagerty has them 15% above across the board and that is based on insured values.... and their values are a bit behind. Open cars always (with few exceptions like the Gullwing Mercedes) out perform closed cars in classic sales.

I have a 356 coupe, I will gladly trade it for a cab.... let me know.

[JordanPryce]

Originally Posted by Nachtfalter

1989 Porsche 911 | Hagerty

Hagerty has them 15% above across the board and that is based on insured values.... and their values are a bit behind. Open cars always (with few exceptions like the Gullwing Mercedes) out perform closed cars in classic sales.

I have a 356 coupe, I will gladly trade it for a cab.... let me know.

I agree in almost every other case. As a former 356 coupe owner I am well aware.

I've never found that to be the case in the classic 911 market. In my experience 911 Driver/enthusiast buyers prefer coupes.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by JordanPryce

I've never found that to be the case in the classic 911 market. In my experience 911 Driver/enthusiast buyers prefer coupes.

There's the rub. The air cooled 911 market has gone mainstream. Lots of people are buying their first air cooled Porsche and they aren't all driver/enthusiasts.

[JordanPryce]

Don't they know that they are leaky, poor handling cars that cost a fortune to keep running?

[NYNick]

CABs are undervalued today. I'm betting time will prove me correct.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by CountD

What's wrong with a cab or Targa?

Everything imaginable (and then some)!

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by pmax

Not sure about the 912 folks though, they're just plain weird.

Confirmation of this = Christian - doesn't get much weirder than that!!!

[Macroni]

I had a cab...... noisy..... I have a targa.... noisy and neither have or had the lines of a coupe.......... with that being said I would love a 356 Cab......

[ficke]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

There's the rub. The air cooled 911 market has gone mainstream. Lots of people are buying their first air cooled Porsche and they aren't all driver/enthusiasts.

This is what I am am seeing also.
Many of the new buyer's of 911's (1965-89) or not looking for track weapons or canyon carvers, they already have Boxsters, 99something, etc. for that.
The new buyers are looking for a classic Porsche, that shape and air cooled, to show, Blvd. cruise, collect, tinker with. 911's have become the new classic Porsche displacing 356's, which have been moved to the antique category.
So many of the old rules do not apply anymore, like Cabs and Targa's are worth less than coupes.
It is the new world order.

[JordanPryce]

Ficke,

I can appreciate that. I always thought you needed to be a dedicated Porsche person to own and service a carbureted early car.

CIS and later cars are pretty much plug and play for those looking for an occasional weekend car to covet and polish.

[2cam]

Originally Posted by ficke

This is what I am am seeing also.
Many of the new buyer's of 911's (1965-89) or not looking for track weapons or canyon carvers, they already have Boxsters, 99something, etc. for that.
The new buyers are looking for a classic Porsche, that shape and air cooled, to show, Blvd. cruise, collect, tinker with. 911's have become the new classic Porsche displacing 356's, which have been moved to the antique category.
So many of the old rules do not apply anymore, like Cabs and Targa's are worth less than coupes.
It is the new world order.

I completely agree with this as I'm representative of the buyer mentioned here. I'm on my 3rd air-cooled 911 over a 20 year span and the last two were purchased as classic machines to drive and tinker with. I really don't have the time to devote to creating a track weapon or spending enough time at the track to make it worthwhile. Although my car is a Coupe, I would have probably been just as happy with a Targa or 'Vert. I drove each and they all had their own special characteristics that made them a great experience. I especially love the sound of the motor with the open cars.

With that said, the 356 has always been one of my favorite cars and I would be more than happy to trade my 3.2 for any model of 356 that's in comparable condition.

2cam

[wannaporsche]

One component of higher pricing that's sometimes missed in these discussions is the cost of keeping a well sorted older 911 on the road. Up til now, SCs for example have been coasting on their original build quality, but they are now starting to age into that stage of their life where they need new paint, top ends, new interiors. Houses from the 80s are going thru the same stage of life - needing new roofing and new heat/AC systems.

The problem is sellers not making investments in improvements benefit from higher market prices by passing an aging car in need of updates along to the next owner -- and a car that needs additional inve$tment to keep running bought for an inflated value keeps the inflation cycle going.

[JordanPryce]

Originally Posted by wannaporsche

One component of higher pricing that's sometimes missed in these discussions is the cost of keeping a well sorted older 911 on the road. Up til now, SCs for example have been coasting on their original build quality, but they are now starting to age into that stage of their life where they need new paint, top ends, new interiors. Houses from the 80s are going thru the same stage of life - needing new roofing and new heat/AC systems.

The problem is sellers not making investments in improvements benefit from higher market prices by passing an aging car in need of updates along to the next owner -- and a car that needs additional inve$tment to keep running bought for an inflated value keeps the inflation cycle going.

Tim,

That was my original point. That many of the cars that I'm seeing out there are aging and not in a good way. To pay premium dollars for a high mileage SC/3.2 that has never been rebuilt and it's in good enough original condition could cost a fortune to make right is tough. And it seems that few sellers are adjusting their pricing based on condition or history. What would you say the current value is for a G50 3.2 in 8 out of 10 condition? I think it's 45K. What about well worn drivers? they aren't looking like much of a discount for cars that might need 20k in work to make them a 8/10 car.....

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by JordanPryce

Ficke,

I can appreciate that. I always thought you needed to be a dedicated Porsche person to own and service a carbureted early car.

CIS and later cars are pretty much plug and play for those looking for an occasional weekend car to covet and polish.

See bold. Welcome to the end of the DIY air cooled owner. Well, not the end, but this is another change in the demographic. The owner who owns a 2010 Carrera S or Boxster Spyder will frequently just pay someone to tend to their new air cooled play thing.. I think that's part of where a lot of the hostility towards the increase in values comes from. For years this great group of sportscars were available to the average Joe. There's a core group of owners and former owners who has some resentment to the bourgeois buy-in to the marque in recent years. Which I personally think it silly because new, Porsches have generally been expensive cars. Just over the decades appreciation made them accessible to the middle class. And now that they are going back up, the middle class finds themselves squeezed out.

[ficke]

This weeks price point for a worn SC with needs but drives is 20-25K
Carrera is 25-30K
It is always cheaper to buy the best car, BUT many people can not come up with the lump sum of money so they do what they can and buy cars with needs.
So there is stiff competition for those entry level cars, to the point where for a few dollars more there are great cars. But people are maxed and buy what they can with the plan to fix later. People are getting scared to be left behind in rising markets so fear of that is also driving the market up on unreasonable project cars.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by dienstuhr

The thing is, you might not understand what "average money" is nowadays. Good Carrera 3.2s for $15K ain't happening anymore.

In any case, why the fuss? You in the market? If so, you gotta pay to play, playa

Unfortunately for those that are, I don't imagine your letter will cause a stampede of sellers rushing to lower their prices...

Cheers

d.

You got that right. My 3.2 for $15k was a bargain then and a STEAL now.

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by JordanPryce

I totally agree. Nothing better than buying from a PCA/Pelican/Rennlist member.

That's one of the reasons I bought from a Pelican. A guy who was rooted in the Porsche community and still is.

I is easier to get a good car at a decent price.

Still, SCs have really seen a big jump this last year. 3.2s as well.

[kramer747]

Just sold my fairly rough 1983 911 SC w/sunroof for $19K. Is this average? Good?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by kramer747

Just sold my fairly rough 1983 911 SC w/sunroof for $19K. Is this average? Good?

Fairly rough isn't a good enough description. Rough how and where?