FAQ or summary of all the 911s market segments?

[brammo]

Hello - new to the forum not new to porsches, but has been a hiatus. You guys really drove up the prices since I was last in the pool!

To avoid all the nooby questions, is there a FAQ or sticky thread or other site referenceI should look at for the nutshell view of the value and current price ranges for the various models?

I am currently looking to get the best car I can for 25k that will be on the right path for appreciation for driving and would like to buy a couple others that are good ones for occasional drivers and are ones that will most likely not lose value.

I love pretty much all of them up to the 996. I am particularly fond of targa's but dont want to just jump in and buy the first one without getting a handle.

Worst case can someone summarize the bigger buckets and price ranges I shoudl expect for a good driver?

Looking forward to getting a Porsche or two again.

(Previous Porsches)
2012 Panamera Hybrid
2000 C4S
1970 S - Wish I would have kept that one

[kreeshp]

Originally Posted by brammo

I am currently looking to get the best car I can for 25k

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.snipped
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I love pretty much all of them up to the 996.

Today $25K buys a 914 or SC. All other coupes or targas up to 996 - good luck with that budget. You might find an unloved pre-996 cabriolet.

summary: sub-$25K for a good air-cooled coupe -- that ship sailed away 1 - 3 years ago, IMHO.

[COLB]

$25k is toward the bottom end of the range for a decent driver, i.e -- a mechanically sound car that starts, runs, drives, and stops as it should, with an intact interior, functioning gauges, no rust, and a clean title.

At that price it is likely to have 120k+ miles, some after-market bits, some interior wear (split seams, cracked dash, tired carpet), "10-15 footer" paint, and a non-functioning A/C.

Prices are tiered slightly in this order: G50 Carrera, 915 Carrera, SC, then Middie -- but the price bands are all pretty close, and excellent SCs and 74S middies are bring as much money as later cars. Condition, mileage, and color are the key variables, with a premium for coupes and some options (like sports seats and LSD).

$35k is really the starting price point for quality cars that offer the condition, maintenance history, and mileage that offer a solid blend of drivability and potential for appreciation. Dealer prices for cars at that level are $40-50k. High quality cars can still be found for less, but realize you are bargain hunting at that point, and it is a cut-throat seller's market.

If you find an outstanding car in a nice color, under 100k, with a $25-28k ask, call fast, and bring cash, or expect to have it sold out from under you.

I gotta say, though -- first time poster, talking about buying multiple cars for investment purposes -- it is a odd start. If you pose as an "newcomer" owner/enthusiast and then start posting cars for sale, it won't go well for you here. If you are looking to get into dealing these cars, my advice would be to come clean about that from the beginning.

Good luck with the search. The hunt is half the fun.

[brammo]

Originally Posted by COLB

$25k is toward the bottom end of the range for a decent driver, i.e -- a mechanically sound car that starts, runs, drives, and stops as it should, with an intact interior, functioning gauges, no rust, and a clean title.

At that price it is likely to have 120k+ miles, some after-market bits, some interior wear (split seams, cracked dash, tired carpet), "10-15 footer" paint, and a non-functioning A/C.

Prices are tiered slightly in this order: G50 Carrera, 915 Carrera, SC, then Middie -- but the price bands are all pretty close, and excellent SCs and 74S middies are bring as much money as later cars. Condition, mileage, and color are the key variables, with a premium for coupes and some options (like sports seats and LSD).

$35k is really the starting price point for quality cars that offer the condition, maintenance history, and mileage that offer a solid blend of drivability and potential for appreciation. Dealer prices for cars at that level are $40-50k. High quality cars can still be found for less, but realize you are bargain hunting at that point, and it is a cut-throat seller's market.

If you find an outstanding car in a nice color, under 100k, with a $25-28k ask, call fast, and bring cash, or expect to have it sold out from under you.

I gotta say, though -- first time poster, talking about buying multiple cars for investment purposes -- it is a odd start. If you pose as an "newcomer" owner/enthusiast and then start posting cars for sale, it won't go well for you here. If you are looking to get into dealing these cars, my advice would be to come clean about that from the beginning.

Good luck with the search. The hunt is half the fun.

Thanks for this response. I understand your first time poster comment, fair enough.

I am not in the business of flipping cars or selling them, I want to own them. I have built a lot of vehicles - Ariel Atom producer in the US for a few years, and my company produced the electric Enertia and Empulse - We have built a bunch of mid engine Ultimas using G50 boxes, with small blocks, etc.

I have had a pretty random collection of cars before, (sold them to build up Brammo ) but I believe that my list of top 10 would probably have 2-3 Porsches in it and I am feeling like tomorrow is getting closer and I need to go up the learning curve and find the two or three I can justify that wont lose value or will retain it.

The 25k mark is just a placeholder as I have found a few 79-82 targas in that range that are 1-2 owners, but seems like 100-150k miles -

I am trying to understand where the best opportunity to own the best cars that I can try and justify to my CFO wife that we can not go wrong bringing them into the collection.

I have been around cars long enough and owned enough to know I really dont know very much and am very appreciative of all the knowledge in a forum like this. I am reading but it seems that a lot of summaries are indeed outdated.

The 35k to get going comment is very helpful. Thanks!

So i take it there is no FAQ or recent summary.

So where do the pre-middies early cars fit in the spectrum?

Craig

[brammo]

Originally Posted by kreeshp

Today $25K buys a 914 or SC. All other coupes or targas up to 996 - good luck with that budget. You might find an unloved pre-996 cabriolet.

summary: sub-$25K for a good air-cooled coupe -- that ship sailed away 1 - 3 years ago, IMHO.

Thanks very much. That is very helpful. Much appreciated.

[COLB]

The 35k to get going comment is very helpful. Thanks!

So i take it there is no FAQ or recent summary.

So where do the pre-middies early cars fit in the spectrum?

Craig -- I checked out your website. Very cool stuff. Didn't mean to come off as a dick, but it is very common for curbstoners to drop in here for purchasing advice on their "dream car" - just to see it posted on ebay a week later for $10k more than they paid the old widow for it. It literally happens all the time!

I tend to focus on the 74-89 cars, and am an amateur at best. The pre-74 "longhood" cars start at about 2x the entry point of "impact bumper" cars. You are looking at $40k for an intact drivable project of a basic 911T-- going up to infinity depending on the model and condition. If you are not in the $60-80k price range, pre-74 is probably more than you want to spend, or will be a serious project..

Most people are going to say don't worry about appreciation or depreciation -- just buy a good one and drive the hell out of it, and it is still going to be better fiscally than any new car. The house CFO may want a more studied approach.

It is hard to say what segment is going to do "best" going forward, as the rising tide has been lifting all boats. I don't see anything really "under appreciated" right now. So it is really just a matter of figuring out how much you have to spend, and making a strategy. I think if you are looking for a car you can drive, with some prospect of appreciation, the following principles are sound:

- Choose original, unmodified cars with original engines & transmissions. These are bringing the money, and will remain solid even of the market hiccups. Avoid aftermarket wheels, steering wheels, billet pedals, RS door cards, wide fenders, re-paints, etc. Some of these are easily reversible, but sourcing original parts can be a PITY, and it isn't getting easier. Opinions differ on things like SSI exhausts and performance chips, as these are not cosmetic -- and actually improve performance. But given a choice, original is best.

- Avoid rusty cars. Be especially wary of rust on pre-77 cars.

- Look for low mileage, but not museum mileage. 70-85k is sort of the sweet spot to me. Not so low you are afraid to drive it, and enough room under 100k that you can log a lot of miles before you hit an inflection point where it starts to affect value. Assume mileage is "unknown" unless there is a solid paper trail to verify it.

- Rare Colors are a good thing. Again, buy what you want. If you like red or black, there are a bunch of them. Unusual 70s-ear colors bring the most money. Sometimes up to 20% over a pedestrian color. I wouldn't buy a 86 dog in Iris Blue over a nice car in White, though. Condition is #1 variable.

-Paperwork matters. Cars with extensive histories will perform the best financially. Expect to see a top end rebuild for head stud repair on 74-83 cars, and probal a transmission rebuild, too. If there is none, price it in. Some will say the same about valve-guides for 84-89. Realize a well maintained, higher mileage car may well be a financial bargain over a low mileage, seldom driven car that has sat for a long time, deteriorating.

All things being equal, I think these are some of the best years for "upside":

1989 -- last of the Carreras. Few were made, and they don't current require much of a premium over 87 or 88.
1986 -- Better seats & seating position than 84-85. If the 915 is in good shape, many enthusiasts prefer it; they are lighter than the G50 cars. Some think this was the best year of the Carrera.
1983 -- last of the SCs. The Cabriolets especially; they were one year models (if you like open cars.)
1974 -- Last pre-smog year. S models especially. Light, narrow hips like early cars, and faster than anything until 1984.

Lots of opinions on those -- most more informed than mine.

[brammo]

Originally Posted by COLB

Craig -- I checked out your website. Very cool stuff. Didn't mean to come off as a dick, but it is very common for curbstoners to drop in here for purchasing advice on their "dream car" - just to see it posted on ebay a week later for $10k more than they paid the old widow for it. It literally happens all the time!

I tend to focus on the 74-89 cars, and am an amateur at best. The pre-74 "longhood" cars start at about 2x the entry point of "impact bumper" cars. You are looking at $40k for an intact drivable project of a basic 911T-- going up to infinity depending on the model and condition. If you are not in the $60-80k price range, pre-74 is probably more than you want to spend, or will be a serious project..

Most people are going to say don't worry about appreciation or depreciation -- just buy a good one and drive the hell out of it, and it is still going to be better fiscally than any new car. The house CFO may want a more studied approach.

It is hard to say what segment is going to do "best" going forward, as the rising tide has been lifting all boats. I don't see anything really "under appreciated" right now. So it is really just a matter of figuring out how much you have to spend, and making a strategy. I think if you are looking for a car you can drive, with some prospect of appreciation, the following principles are sound:

- Choose original, unmodified cars with original engines & transmissions. These are bringing the money, and will remain solid even of the market hiccups. Avoid aftermarket wheels, steering wheels, billet pedals, RS door cards, wide fenders, re-paints, etc. Some of these are easily reversible, but sourcing original parts can be a PITY, and it isn't getting easier. Opinions differ on things like SSI exhausts and performance chips, as these are not cosmetic -- and actually improve performance. But given a choice, original is best.

- Avoid rusty cars. Be especially wary of rust on pre-77 cars.

- Look for low mileage, but not museum mileage. 70-85k is sort of the sweet spot to me. Not so low you are afraid to drive it, and enough room under 100k that you can log a lot of miles before you hit an inflection point where it starts to affect value. Assume mileage is "unknown" unless there is a solid paper trail to verify it.

- Rare Colors are a good thing. Again, buy what you want. If you like red or black, there are a bunch of them. Unusual 70s-ear colors bring the most money. Sometimes up to 20% over a pedestrian color. I wouldn't buy a 86 dog in Iris Blue over a nice car in White, though. Condition is #1 variable.

-Paperwork matters. Cars with extensive histories will perform the best financially. Expect to see a top end rebuild for head stud repair on 74-83 cars, and probal a transmission rebuild, too. If there is none, price it in. Some will say the same about valve-guides for 84-89. Realize a well maintained, higher mileage car may well be a financial bargain over a low mileage, seldom driven car that has sat for a long time, deteriorating.

All things being equal, I think these are some of the best years for "upside":

1989 -- last of the Carreras. Few were made, and they don't current require much of a premium over 87 or 88.
1986 -- Better seats & seating position than 84-85. If the 915 is in good shape, many enthusiasts prefer it; they are lighter than the G50 cars. Some think this was the best year of the Carrera.
1983 -- last of the SCs. The Cabriolets especially; they were one year models (if you like open cars.)
1974 -- Last pre-smog year. S models especially. Light, narrow hips like early cars, and faster than anything until 1984.

Lots of opinions on those -- most more informed than mine.

Thank you for this post. This is very informational and will help me come up to speed quickly. Thank you very much. I completely understand on the flippers, etc and you did not come off that way, I just realized I should probably have given background and context to my questions. I dont want to come off as "I know what I am doing" or think I know anything about these cars just because of different experience elsewhere.

Since you are playing along, I will ask another set of questions, if you don't mind.

1. If you had 250k to spend what three cars would you buy.
2. If you had to choose one single Porsche that you could buy today that would most definitely go up in value, which one would it be and what would you have to pay.
3. For a driver, what is the most bang for the buck. This one is about getting in for a great value, no concerns over driving it hard. With little or no thought for appreciation.

Thanks very much. This is very helpful. I have been trying to figure out how to do a screen scrape on Hagerty to build some data so I can see what the charts look like relatively in terms of trend for the segments you have broken out. Might be a bigger project.

I think you can see the lengths I will go to justify buying a Car -

[Westy]

Never understood this viewpoint. Car is 35+ years old and has over a 100k miles, be careful. Then folks post about how they just eclipsed 250-300k miles and the case has never been split. 35 year old car, 100k miles = very few miles per year. IMO, cars with over 100k miles, with all the upgrades and service, are being unfairly targeted as high mile cars that folks should be wary of. Of course, I have one of those cars, so my viewpoint is most decidedly biased!

[HugoBear]

I agree. My car just turned 136k and had a top end rebuild about 10k miles ago and runs like a top, probably better than a lot of the less than 100k mile examples. I continue to be surprised about the premium low mileage cars bring, especially the ones that don't look to be in condition that is consistent with those low miles

[brammo]

Originally Posted by Westy

Never understood this viewpoint. Car is 35+ years old and has over a 100k miles, be careful. Then folks post about how they just eclipsed 250-300k miles and the case has never been split. 35 year old car, 100k miles = very few miles per year. IMO, cars with over 100k miles, with all the upgrades and service, are being unfairly targeted as high mile cars that folks should be wary of. Of course, I have one of those cars, so my viewpoint is most decidedly biased!

Interesting point. I think I would rather have a consistently maintained 125k car than one that has sat for some number of years with 80k. When I look in the market, a 125k car vs. under 100k is not getting that big of a discount, a few thousand maybe? BUt I have only been searching for a few weeks.

[COLB]

I agree. My car just turned 136k and had a top end rebuild about 10k miles ago and runs like a top, probably better than a lot of the less than 100k mile examples. I continue to be surprised about the premium low mileage cars bring, especially the ones that don't look to be in condition that is consistent with those low miles

The market is what it is. The used Porsche market will tolerate a "high miles" car a LOT more than the Ferrari market will. 80k is still "low miles" on a 80s Carrera. 45k miles on almost any Ferrari draws comparisons to Methuselah. IMO, there is a pretty big inflection point at 100k for Porsches. Not so much between 100k and 125k.

1. If you had 250k to spend what three cars would you buy.

I'd keep the '88 Cab I have (worth $35k); buy a '72 911E coupe (preferably Gulf Blue); and buy a 3.8L Jaguar E-type convertible. I love 911s, but 3 would be overkill.

2. If you had to choose one single Porsche that you could buy today that would most definitely go up in value, which one would it be and what would you have to pay.

This question is too broad. They are all going to go up in value over the long term. Are you looking for a single or a home run? And how much risk are you willing to accept? I think 993 C2S are underpriced.

3. For a driver, what is the most bang for the buck. This one is about getting in for a great value, no concerns over driving it hard. With little or no thought for appreciation.

Are you tracking it, or street driving? Open or closed cars? I love an open car, and you get about the same performance with the joy of having the top down -- and you get it for a few grand less than a comparable coupe. In the entire Porsche universe, there are a number of folks around here who would argue that the best "bang for the buck" as a pure driver is the 996 Turbo.

[Matt Monson]

$250k to spend? Condition 3 '70S coupe driver, '74 condition 2 911 targa, and a '73 2.0l 914 driver.

As was said, anything air cooled in good condition will keep going up. Some more than others. Some faster than others. I would buy what I like, enjoy it, and rest easy that it will be worth more than I paid when I sell them. And I'd drive them. Parked cars are useless.

[Westy]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Parked cars are useless.

Agreed. Now if someone wants to give me $250K, I would buy a GT40. I'd drive it every chance I had. With the money left over I'd buy,,,um,,,,well,,,,,a Happy Meal!

[Scottc714]

I have a 78 targa I bought last November and I'm waiting on delivery of an 80 coupe I bought last week.

Now I'm trying to rationalize and justify keeping both. Money was just sitting in a asavings acct earning next to nothing anyway.

[brammo]

Originally Posted by Scottc714

I have a 78 targa I bought last November and I'm waiting on delivery of an 80 coupe I bought last week.

Now I'm trying to rationalize and justify keeping both. Money was just sitting in a asavings acct earning next to nothing anyway.

Well, if you have trouble rationalizing, I am definitely looking for a Targa..

[kwyjibo]

A few years back you were looking for an E9, did you ever find one?

[brammo]

Originally Posted by kwyjibo

A few years back you were looking for an E9, did you ever find one?

yes, I found two eventually, one was a bit of a mess, the other was very clean. I am still planning on doing an S65 conversion, but I have found that I need to do a chassis strengthening to do that, so I am working with a body guy in EU that does it, to see if he can prepare a kit, so i dont have to buy an EU car or ship a body round trip. I am sure someone here can do it.

You have a great memory... Did we chat about one of your cars?

Craig

[Macroni]

SC Targa, or a middie for $25K, They are out there but you must be diligent in your search as well as patient. I would wait till the fall.....

Best value.... I agree w/ Colb.... the water cooled family's 996TT or 996GT3. Lots of car but minus the air-cooled visceral experience......

[brammo]

Originally Posted by Macroni

SC Targa, or a middie for $25K, They are out there but you must be diligent in your search as well as patient. I would wait till the fall.....

Best value.... I agree w/ Colb.... the water cooled family's 996TT or 996GT3. Lots of car but minus the air-cooled visceral experience......

thanks for this.

I have found a couple of Targa SC for 22-27k but all have 100-150k miles. But many well documented and 2-3 owners. That is pretty intriguing for a driver.

So far the only middies that I have found for 25k are more of a project.

I am narrowing my search and can be patient, which I think is good advice.

[kwyjibo]

Originally Posted by brammo

yes, I found two eventually, one was a bit of a mess, the other was very clean. I am still planning on doing an S65 conversion, but I have found that I need to do a chassis strengthening to do that, so I am working with a body guy in EU that does it, to see if he can prepare a kit, so i dont have to buy an EU car or ship a body round trip. I am sure someone here can do it.

You have a great memory... Did we chat about one of your cars?

Craig

My car hasn't been for sale for almost 10 years. You might remember my user name because I asked if yours had anything to do with a bike at the Isle of Man TT.

Regarding your chassis, have you contacted Mario at VSR in Bow, NH? His shop is responsible for many nice restorations and track preps.

Regarding your current search, as long as it isn't among a long list of problems I wouldn't let 150k miles dissuade me if it was well taken care of (with documentation).