Non-Matching Engine Value Affect

[plumber]

Originally Posted by thamlin000

OP is at $37.5k and owner is at $43k? No question, I say buy it. It's a soft window. The $5.5k difference is a drop in the bucket in pre 1970s vintage Porsche world.

Many speedsters and other 356s is see for sale out there are non-numbers matching!

I agree 100% what's another 5k, or go there with a money order for 40 and the other 3 in your pocket all those zeros might convince him to sell!
They only made so many when will you come across another?

[Miniwerks]

Thanks guys, excellent input. More thinking to do!

[nota]

10-12 to rebuild a 912 ????

ok how much value drop if a hotrod vw is in the car
with more power then a 65 base 911 motor ?

[Miniwerks]

I am going to pass on this one and remain on the hunt for matching numbers cars. If anyone has interest, send me a PM and I can put you in touch with the owner. The car is located in Chico, CA.

[bmendel]

Someone is going to get a deal at 43K, they didn't make many soft windows in 67, pretty rare to see 1 for sale, let alone 2 for sale around the same time.

That said, the engine number is nowhere close to the correct date, that's a very early 65 engine number, and it is probably a type on the COA as well, since there were no 775xxx engines.

No one seems to point out that just because it is non matching, it can still appreciate over the years. Comparing to the ebay car, if a matching car is 54K and non matching is 43K, in a few years, if the matching car is worth 65K, the non matching doesn't stay at 43K, it's going to be worth 50-52K, it just appreciates at 70-80% of what the matching car does, especially for something as rare as a softwindow.

[dtw]

I've wondered this for years. What are "original miles"? I must be the only person who doesn't know because everyone uses the term.

How does a car with a non-original engine have "original miles"?

[Nick Triesch]

We all know that old 356 cars get a free pass when it comes to non matching numbers and lots of miles. . So just buy the car and then when it gets really old it just will not matter! It will be worth a ton anyway!!! I love these cars!!

[Miniwerks]

Miles are measured on the chassis rolling on the wheels so assuming speedo was always connected and functioning properly, the car itself has the number of miles reflected on the speedo. If at some point the engine is removed and replaced with a different engine, the car still retains it's original miles but the engine is now working from the original miles of the car it came from or number of miles since it was rebuilt. For example this 912 may have 71,700 "original" miles from new, but the engine has just a few hundred miles. Not sure if the owner noted mileage on the speedo at time he installed the rebuilt engine. Clear as mud as I read it back to myself.

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Miniwerks

Miles are measured on the chassis rolling on the wheels so assuming speedo was always connected and functioning properly, the car itself has the number of miles reflected on the speedo. If at some point the engine is removed and replaced with a different engine, the car still retains it's original miles but the engine is now working from the original miles of the car it came from or number of miles since it was rebuilt. For example this 912 may have 71,700 "original" miles from new, but the engine has just a few hundred miles. Not sure if the owner noted mileage on the speedo at time he installed the rebuilt engine. Clear as mud as I read it back to myself.

This is technically correct, but it poster's point is valid.

It is stretching the meaning of the term to apply the label "original miles" to a car with a non-original engine.

Not wrong -- just significantly less meaningful.

[Matt Monson]

For me the significance of original miles kind of goes out the window when even the matching engine gets rebuilt. Original miles is a metric for low mileage collectible cars. To me any car with an engine rebuild on it has enough miles on it to no longer be "low miles".

This car is trying to highlight that it has under 75k mi. Who cares? The rubber bushings are still 50 years old and need replacing if you want to drive it. And fuel lines. And brake lines. Etc.

This is all different than using mileage as a metric of how good a "used" car is. 911sc engines able to go 200k before a rebuild if no head studs break. If I'm shopping for a car is a 150k mi original car with a rebuild or one without a rebuild going to be the car I buy? Depends on price.

[Miniwerks]

All valid points. Personally I would rather find a low mileage car, less wear and tear on other parts and surfaces. The odds are greater you will retain original interior surfaces, headliner, windshield glass, headlights, bright work, etc. Sure you will need to go through the car to make it road worthy, bushings, shocks, fluids, fuel tank boiled possibly, fuel lines, tires. If you just want a nice driver then you can probably find a great car that has had everything rebuilt and freshened up.

If someone is selling a low mileage car but with a non-matching engine, then they simply point out the chassis has xx,xxx miles and engine has xxx. I would guess this particular 912 SW would make a great driver but not a great investment grade car.

[Yorkie]

Any idea what hit my '70S will take as a result of having a non-matching but correct for ('72) MFI motor? Hagerty states $110 for a number 4

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Miniwerks

All valid points. Personally I would rather find a low mileage car, less wear and tear on other parts and surfaces. The odds are greater you will retain original interior surfaces, headliner, windshield glass, headlights, bright work, etc. Sure you will need to go through the car to make it road worthy, bushings, shocks, fluids, fuel tank boiled possibly, fuel lines, tires. If you just want a nice driver then you can probably find a great car that has had everything rebuilt and freshened up.

If someone is selling a low mileage car but with a non-matching engine, then they simply point out the chassis has xx,xxx miles and engine has xxx. I would guess this particular 912 SW would make a great driver but not a great investment grade car.

I think this covers it pretty well:

Originally Posted by bmendel

No one seems to point out that just because it is non matching, it can still appreciate over the years. Comparing to the ebay car, if a matching car is 54K and non matching is 43K, in a few years, if the matching car is worth 65K, the non matching doesn't stay at 43K, it's going to be worth 50-52K, it just appreciates at 70-80% of what the matching car does, especially for something as rare as a softwindow.

I personally don't look at cars as investments. They are my toys. I know some people look at them differently. Any nice 912 SWT is going to continue to appreciate and I think in a decade the price differential between numbers matching and non will narrow, just as has happened with 356s. They just didn't make very many of them. They are kind of special cars. As such I think you assertion that this is not an investment grade car is incorrect. Though to some people only a number 2 condition car is investment grade and without some serious work, this car is nowhere near a 2. Most of them aren't.

[Miniwerks]

I think we need another scale like the Hagerty valuation but call it "investment condition 1-4". I like investment grade drivers. If you need a battery tender you are not driving enough in my opinion but that's just me. Easy for me to say though, living in Northern California.

[bpu699]

Why in the world would a matching numbers motor matter in a 911?

In muscle cars, it does, because you can use the numbers to verify that a high spec car actually had the rare motor it came from the factory with. They don't just want you to jam a rare motor in a base car, and say you have a rare Shelby Boss when you don't...

In a porsche, why care? Every car had the same motor within that line. Its not like one 911 had a hemi-cuda equivilant holy grail motor, and the other an inline 6. The motors were all the same (obvilusly an "S" is different - but thats not what this is).

I would think that as long as them motor is the same as found in that years car, the serial number is less relevant than for a muscle car. Thats why, on a 356, no one cares...

The original motor numbers dont even match the frame/vin from the factory!!! If the factory didn't care, why should the collector...

[Miniwerks]

With the 911s as opposed to the early 912s, you did have different engine types, "S", "E", "L", "T" with differences among them, mainly horsepower and carburetion I guess. Other guys can certainly explain the many differences much better than I. For example with a genuine 1970s 911S, you would diminish the value even further if it had a 1973.5 CIS 911T motor for example. To use your muscle car analogy, think of the 911S motor as the "hemi", an "S" motor might actually elevate the value of a 911T, it would at least make for a very tasteful "hotrod". Add other "S" trim and factory Recaro's and you have a "poor man's 911S" if you call a $100k car a poor man's car but compared to a matching number 911S long hood, the difference is quite significant.

[Matt Monson]

A lot of 71-73 us delivered 911T actually got the S appearance package. Many even got sport seats. Didn't need to change them. I'm just saying.

[Miniwerks]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

A lot of 71-73 us delivered 911T actually got the S appearance package. Many even got sport seats. Didn't need to change them. I'm just saying.

Very true, I owned one. Long gone.

[COLB]

Playing to role of Captain Obvious -- a 912 motor is interchangeable -- no T, E, S.

Clearly, it matters to you -- so best to buy the car you are going to be happy with.

But the original question was: "What effect does a non-original motor have on value?"

The answers were generally "not as much as you would think" -- especially on a car you are not taking to Pebble Beach, etc.

If you are buying it to drive, with an eye on appreciation -- the money you save upfront is very possibly more that the difference in long-term financial gain. Especially a new rebuild vs an original motor in uncertain/worn condition.

[Miniwerks]

"Captain Obvious", Vince Vaughan? Love that guy. The thread changed to 911s hence the E, T, L, S conversation unrelated to 912s. I have moved on from this 912 but could be a great car for someone else.