Non-Matching Engine Value Affect

[Miniwerks]

I am considering a 1967 912 Soft Window Targa with just under 72k original miles. Very dry, original car, light ivory, black leatherette. Matching gearbox but engine was replaced due to engine fire. The engine number is close in build date and just a few hundred miles on rebuild. Otherwise excellent condition, will post some photos. Correct date stamped wheels, tool kit, jack, original interior, wood steering wheel. My question is what affect a non-matching engine has on value? I have heard 10-20% but as high as 40%. The engine number in the car now is 740402 and has Webers.

[Miniwerks]

[Miniwerks]

All other details being correct/original, what affect do non-matching engines have on early 911/912s? I assume a great affect on 911s. I am considering a 1967 912 Soft Window Targa with just under 72k original miles. Very dry, original car, light ivory, black leatherette. Matching gearbox but engine was replaced due to engine fire. The engine number is close in build date and just a few hundred miles on rebuild. Otherwise excellent condition, will post some photos. Correct date stamped wheels, tool kit, jack, original interior, wood steering wheel. My question is what affect a non-matching engine has on value? I have heard 10-20% but as high as 40%. The engine number in the car now is 740402 and has Webers. I also posted this question with photos in the 912 forum.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-912-technical-forum/906074-non-matching-numbers-values.html

[Jerome74911S]

I hope that this doesn't sound smart-ass, but do you want to drive the car, or have it as an investment? If you really want to drive and have fun, then the numbers mean nothing. As for investment quality I guess that is another story, but a do-it-yourself forum probably isn't the best place to discuss the issue - although you will get opinions.

[Miniwerks]

Both actually, but not sure what to offer the seller. It is easy to gauge market values for matching cars but I have not seen anything regarding non-matching cars. Is there a better thread in the forum to post this question? How can I delete this post? You make a good point, not the right place. Do I need to contact the moderator?

[billh1963]

Miniwerks..your question is best asked in the Porsche Marketplace Discussion Forum...where a moderator will probably move it anyway

[Miniwerks]

Makes sense. Jent sent Luccia a PM.

[Donald T]

Hopefully, the tool kit for the soft window will be included (they cost thousands, if you can get one). I think a non-matching engine is a blessing in disguise as it will make it a great driver and keep you from going down the show car road. My 912 has a non-matching engine and I drive it everywhere, everyday and love it! Even in New Hampshire (just not when salt is on road).

[Miniwerks]

Very good point Donald and beautiful 912 by the way. I do drive my 79 930 Turbo (54k miles) and restored 66 912 coupe but just short blasts on weekends to keep parts and fluids moving. I'm just not sure what a correct price/offer would be. It does have the tool kit but looks like it may not be complete. My estimate was high 30s but the owner is thinking mid-40s. It does have a lot going for it other than the engine but the engine does have just a few hundred miles on it. If I can't get past the non-matching engine, I would be happy to share the seller's contact info and continue to look for a matching car. This one just needs a thorough detail and to be driven.

[Miniwerks]

[Matt Monson]

The more important question is how much is he asking for it? Guy offers me a car and says,"Make me an offer"? I don't bother. He's been reading online too much and thinks he has the golden calf. I'd pay a left nut for a nice 912 SWT but he may think my nut isn't worth as much as I think it is worth.

[Miniwerks]

He was at $45k, now $43 and says that it is the bottom. I was thinking $37,500. I saw a similar car sell on ebay this weekend for $54k but it was numbers matching. On the other hand, it had over 200k miles on car.
Porsche 912 Same Owner Since 1968 Super Service History | eBay

[CountD]

Awesome car.

And thank you, thank you, thank you for the awesome photos as well.

Since this is 1) a rare car, 2) a desirable car, and 3) a very clean car, and 4) most are bought in this condition for investment, I would say a 30-40% hit. Why? Because a 912 soft window in this condition is very hard to come by. And these types of cars are now and will forever be on the collectors' radar. And collectors want numbers matching - plain and simple.

I would buy it though. Looks like a really nice purchase and a really fun classic.

You cannot classify a flat percentage as it obviously depends on the car. For example, a '67 911S without the S engine is no longer a S. And it takes a 40% hit.

[matt930s]

Ronnie- whats MM nut worth?

MattR

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

The more important question is how much is he asking for it? Guy offers me a car and says,"Make me an offer"? I don't bother. He's been reading online too much and thinks he has the golden calf. I'd pay a left nut for a nice 912 SWT but he may think my nut isn't worth as much as I think it is worth.

[JJK78-951]

^^^ What Matt said.

All depends on the asking price, but to answer your question 40% is way to much for a non matching, realistic number is closer to 20%, but in this case I would go 15% or so given how original it is. If it was a 67 911 with a magnesium 2.7 from a 75 in it, i'd say 20%-30% hit is more likely.

Hope this helps.
J

[Miniwerks]

Originally Posted by CountD

Awesome car.

And thank you, thank you, thank you for the awesome photos as well.

Since this is 1) a rare car, 2) a desirable car, and 3) a very clean car, and 4) most are bought in this condition for investment, I would say a 30-40% hit. Why? Because a 912 soft window in this condition is very hard to come by. And these types of cars are now and will forever be on the collectors' radar. And collectors want numbers matching - plain and simple.

I would buy it though. Looks like a really nice purchase and a really fun classic.

You cannot classify a flat percentage as it obviously depends on the car. For example, a '67 911S without the S engine is no longer a S. And it takes a 40% hit.

Thanks, that is my thought as well. I took many more photos. I think it would be a good buy in the 30s, I am just hung up at his number so may have to pass.

[Ronnie's.930]

Originally Posted by matt930s

Ronnie- whats MM nut worth?

MattR

Not even half as much as one of mine!

[COLB]

Originally Posted by Miniwerks

He was at $45k, now $43 and says that it is the bottom. I was thinking $37,500. I saw a similar car sell on ebay this weekend for $54k but it was numbers matching. On the other hand, it had over 200k miles on car.
Porsche 912 Same Owner Since 1968 Super Service History | eBay

$43k is a 20% hit on $54k.

Now factor in this car having a brand new rebuild. Assuming it is a quality job, what does that cost? $6-8k? Maybe a lot more depending what was done.

Now where are you at financially?

If you are going to hold the car for 10-15+ years the matching #s might matter. But it is not a concours car. If it is a "driver" I seriously doubt the appreciation difference will overcome the discount + the cost of a rebuild.

Put the $11k you "saved" in an investment fund and you will probably do better in the long run.

[thamlin000]

OP is at $37.5k and owner is at $43k? No question, I say buy it. It's a soft window. The $5.5k difference is a drop in the bucket in pre 1970s vintage Porsche world.

Many speedsters and other 356s is see for sale out there are non-numbers matching!

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by thamlin000

OP is at $37.5k and owner is at $43k? No question, I say buy it. It's a soft window. The $5.5k difference is a drop in the bucket in pre 1970s vintage Porsche world.

Many speedsters and other 356s is see for sale out there are non-numbers matching!

This. By the summer solstice you could take this to cars n coffee and get 45-50k unsolicited offers.

And for Colb, today a proper 912 rebuild will run you $12-15k.