Non-Matching Numbers Values?
 

I am considering a 1967 912 Soft Window Targa with just under 72k original miles. Very dry, original car, light ivory, black leatherette. Matching gearbox but engine was replaced due to engine fire. The engine number is close in build date and just a few hundred miles on rebuild. Otherwise excellent condition, will post some photos. Correct date stamped wheels, tool kit, jack, original interior, wood steering wheel. My question is what affect a non-matching engine has on value? I have heard 10-20% but as high as 40%. The engine number in the car now is 740402 and has Webers.

photos...
 

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Non-Matching Engine Value Affect
 

All other details being correct/original, what affect do non-matching engines have on early 911/912s? I assume a great affect on 911s. I am considering a 1967 912 Soft Window Targa with just under 72k original miles. Very dry, original car, light ivory, black leatherette. Matching gearbox but engine was replaced due to engine fire. The engine number is close in build date and just a few hundred miles on rebuild. Otherwise excellent condition, will post some photos. Correct date stamped wheels, tool kit, jack, original interior, wood steering wheel. My question is what affect a non-matching engine has on value? I have heard 10-20% but as high as 40%. The engine number in the car now is 740402 and has Webers. I also posted this question with photos in the 912 forum.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-912-technical-forum/906074-non-matching-numbers-values.html

I hope that this doesn't sound smart-ass, but do you want to drive the car, or have it as an investment? If you really want to drive and have fun, then the numbers mean nothing. As for investment quality I guess that is another story, but a do-it-yourself forum probably isn't the best place to discuss the issue - although you will get opinions.

Both actually, but not sure what to offer the seller. It is easy to gauge market values for matching cars but I have not seen anything regarding non-matching cars. Is there a better thread in the forum to post this question? How can I delete this post? You make a good point, not the right place. Do I need to contact the moderator?

Miniwerks..your question is best asked in the Porsche Marketplace Discussion Forum...where a moderator will probably move it anyway

Makes sense. Jent sent Luccia a PM.

Hopefully, the tool kit for the soft window will be included (they cost thousands, if you can get one). I think a non-matching engine is a blessing in disguise as it will make it a great driver and keep you from going down the show car road. My 912 has a non-matching engine and I drive it everywhere, everyday and love it! Even in New Hampshire (just not when salt is on road).http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1457994822.jpg

Very good point Donald and beautiful 912 by the way. I do drive my 79 930 Turbo (54k miles) and restored 66 912 coupe but just short blasts on weekends to keep parts and fluids moving. I'm just not sure what a correct price/offer would be. It does have the tool kit but looks like it may not be complete. My estimate was high 30s but the owner is thinking mid-40s. It does have a lot going for it other than the engine but the engine does have just a few hundred miles on it. If I can't get past the non-matching engine, I would be happy to share the seller's contact info and continue to look for a matching car. This one just needs a thorough detail and to be driven.

Tool kit, dated stamped spare 11/66
 

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The more important question is how much is he asking for it? Guy offers me a car and says,"Make me an offer"? I don't bother. He's been reading online too much and thinks he has the golden calf. I'd pay a left nut for a nice 912 SWT but he may think my nut isn't worth as much as I think it is worth.

He was at $45k, now $43 and says that it is the bottom. I was thinking $37,500. I saw a similar car sell on ebay this weekend for $54k but it was numbers matching. On the other hand, it had over 200k miles on car.
Porsche 912 Same Owner Since 1968 Super Service History | eBay

Awesome car.

And thank you, thank you, thank you for the awesome photos as well.

Since this is 1) a rare car, 2) a desirable car, and 3) a very clean car, and 4) most are bought in this condition for investment, I would say a 30-40% hit. Why? Because a 912 soft window in this condition is very hard to come by. And these types of cars are now and will forever be on the collectors' radar. And collectors want numbers matching - plain and simple.

I would buy it though. Looks like a really nice purchase and a really fun classic.

You cannot classify a flat percentage as it obviously depends on the car. For example, a '67 911S without the S engine is no longer a S. And it takes a 40% hit.

Ronnie- whats MM nut worth?

MattR

^^^ What Matt said.

All depends on the asking price, but to answer your question 40% is way to much for a non matching, realistic number is closer to 20%, but in this case I would go 15% or so given how original it is. If it was a 67 911 with a magnesium 2.7 from a 75 in it, i'd say 20%-30% hit is more likely.

Hope this helps.
J

Thanks, that is my thought as well. I took many more photos. I think it would be a good buy in the 30s, I am just hung up at his number so may have to pass.

Not even half as much as one of mine!

$43k is a 20% hit on $54k.

Now factor in this car having a brand new rebuild. Assuming it is a quality job, what does that cost? $6-8k? Maybe a lot more depending what was done.

Now where are you at financially?

If you are going to hold the car for 10-15+ years the matching #s might matter. But it is not a concours car. If it is a "driver" I seriously doubt the appreciation difference will overcome the discount + the cost of a rebuild.

Put the $11k you "saved" in an investment fund and you will probably do better in the long run.

OP is at $37.5k and owner is at $43k? No question, I say buy it. It's a soft window. The $5.5k difference is a drop in the bucket in pre 1970s vintage Porsche world.

Many speedsters and other 356s is see for sale out there are non-numbers matching!

This. By the summer solstice you could take this to cars n coffee and get 45-50k unsolicited offers.

And for Colb, today a proper 912 rebuild will run you $12-15k.

67 912 thinking of buying
 

I agree 100% what's another 5k, or go there with a money order for 40 and the other 3 in your pocket all those zeros might convince him to sell!
They only made so many when will you come across another?

Thanks guys, excellent input. More thinking to do!

10-12 to rebuild a 912 ????

ok how much value drop if a hotrod vw is in the car
with more power then a 65 base 911 motor ?

I am going to pass on this one and remain on the hunt for matching numbers cars. If anyone has interest, send me a PM and I can put you in touch with the owner. The car is located in Chico, CA.

Someone is going to get a deal at 43K, they didn't make many soft windows in 67, pretty rare to see 1 for sale, let alone 2 for sale around the same time.

That said, the engine number is nowhere close to the correct date, that's a very early 65 engine number, and it is probably a type on the COA as well, since there were no 775xxx engines.

No one seems to point out that just because it is non matching, it can still appreciate over the years. Comparing to the ebay car, if a matching car is 54K and non matching is 43K, in a few years, if the matching car is worth 65K, the non matching doesn't stay at 43K, it's going to be worth 50-52K, it just appreciates at 70-80% of what the matching car does, especially for something as rare as a softwindow.

I've wondered this for years. What are "original miles"? I must be the only person who doesn't know because everyone uses the term.

How does a car with a non-original engine have "original miles"?

We all know that old 356 cars get a free pass when it comes to non matching numbers and lots of miles. . So just buy the car and then when it gets really old it just will not matter! It will be worth a ton anyway!!! I love these cars!!

Miles are measured on the chassis rolling on the wheels so assuming speedo was always connected and functioning properly, the car itself has the number of miles reflected on the speedo. If at some point the engine is removed and replaced with a different engine, the car still retains it's original miles but the engine is now working from the original miles of the car it came from or number of miles since it was rebuilt. For example this 912 may have 71,700 "original" miles from new, but the engine has just a few hundred miles. Not sure if the owner noted mileage on the speedo at time he installed the rebuilt engine. Clear as mud as I read it back to myself.

This is technically correct, but it poster's point is valid.

It is stretching the meaning of the term to apply the label "original miles" to a car with a non-original engine.

Not wrong -- just significantly less meaningful.

For me the significance of original miles kind of goes out the window when even the matching engine gets rebuilt. Original miles is a metric for low mileage collectible cars. To me any car with an engine rebuild on it has enough miles on it to no longer be "low miles".

This car is trying to highlight that it has under 75k mi. Who cares? The rubber bushings are still 50 years old and need replacing if you want to drive it. And fuel lines. And brake lines. Etc.

This is all different than using mileage as a metric of how good a "used" car is. 911sc engines able to go 200k before a rebuild if no head studs break. If I'm shopping for a car is a 150k mi original car with a rebuild or one without a rebuild going to be the car I buy? Depends on price.

All valid points. Personally I would rather find a low mileage car, less wear and tear on other parts and surfaces. The odds are greater you will retain original interior surfaces, headliner, windshield glass, headlights, bright work, etc. Sure you will need to go through the car to make it road worthy, bushings, shocks, fluids, fuel tank boiled possibly, fuel lines, tires. If you just want a nice driver then you can probably find a great car that has had everything rebuilt and freshened up.

If someone is selling a low mileage car but with a non-matching engine, then they simply point out the chassis has xx,xxx miles and engine has xxx. I would guess this particular 912 SW would make a great driver but not a great investment grade car.

Any idea what hit my '70S will take as a result of having a non-matching but correct for ('72) MFI motor? Hagerty states $110 for a number 4

I think this covers it pretty well:

I personally don't look at cars as investments. They are my toys. I know some people look at them differently. Any nice 912 SWT is going to continue to appreciate and I think in a decade the price differential between numbers matching and non will narrow, just as has happened with 356s. They just didn't make very many of them. They are kind of special cars. As such I think you assertion that this is not an investment grade car is incorrect. Though to some people only a number 2 condition car is investment grade and without some serious work, this car is nowhere near a 2. Most of them aren't.

I think we need another scale like the Hagerty valuation but call it "investment condition 1-4". I like investment grade drivers. If you need a battery tender you are not driving enough in my opinion but that's just me. Easy for me to say though, living in Northern California.

Why in the world would a matching numbers motor matter in a 911?

In muscle cars, it does, because you can use the numbers to verify that a high spec car actually had the rare motor it came from the factory with. They don't just want you to jam a rare motor in a base car, and say you have a rare Shelby Boss when you don't...

In a porsche, why care? Every car had the same motor within that line. Its not like one 911 had a hemi-cuda equivilant holy grail motor, and the other an inline 6. The motors were all the same (obvilusly an "S" is different - but thats not what this is).

I would think that as long as them motor is the same as found in that years car, the serial number is less relevant than for a muscle car. Thats why, on a 356, no one cares...

The original motor numbers dont even match the frame/vin from the factory!!! If the factory didn't care, why should the collector...

With the 911s as opposed to the early 912s, you did have different engine types, "S", "E", "L", "T" with differences among them, mainly horsepower and carburetion I guess. Other guys can certainly explain the many differences much better than I. For example with a genuine 1970s 911S, you would diminish the value even further if it had a 1973.5 CIS 911T motor for example. To use your muscle car analogy, think of the 911S motor as the "hemi", an "S" motor might actually elevate the value of a 911T, it would at least make for a very tasteful "hotrod". Add other "S" trim and factory Recaro's and you have a "poor man's 911S" if you call a $100k car a poor man's car but compared to a matching number 911S long hood, the difference is quite significant.

A lot of 71-73 us delivered 911T actually got the S appearance package. Many even got sport seats. Didn't need to change them. I'm just saying.

Very true, I owned one. Long gone.

Playing to role of Captain Obvious -- a 912 motor is interchangeable -- no T, E, S.

Clearly, it matters to you -- so best to buy the car you are going to be happy with.

But the original question was: "What effect does a non-original motor have on value?"

The answers were generally "not as much as you would think" -- especially on a car you are not taking to Pebble Beach, etc.

If you are buying it to drive, with an eye on appreciation -- the money you save upfront is very possibly more that the difference in long-term financial gain. Especially a new rebuild vs an original motor in uncertain/worn condition.

"Captain Obvious", Vince Vaughan? Love that guy. The thread changed to 911s hence the E, T, L, S conversation unrelated to 912s. I have moved on from this 912 but could be a great car for someone else.