Intro and Question about '89 911 have my eye on

[Ski]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

This ^^^ is not accurate - all of the 911/911 Turbo engines (other than the 993TT) with dilivar studs are very susceptible to head stud breakage (not just the 3.0 engines).

Dilivar is a ridiculously delicate, basically garbage alloy that begins to fracture at the slightest hint of corrosion - hard to understand why Porsche insisted on using it for so long despite tremendous evidence of failure.

PS - don't fall for the "engine x,y, or z is bulletproof" bullshart that is so common to hear/read - total malarkey!

Just also read a few "what to look for" articles authored by Wayne and one of them was all about the studs and Dilivar, and to your point, how its use spans across SO many models. Getting Yellow Highlight in my buying checklist!!

[Ski]

Originally Posted by Christien

The head studs weren't an issue, I had them upgraded to ARPs while the engine was apart. The issue was that one of the valve guides was in bad shape, leading to poor compression on that cylinder. Apparently the oil can corrode the brass if the engine sits for a long time. So having a 30-year-old car with only 37k miles isn't necessarily all good.

Did that issue show up in the PPI? If not, is there a tiering of PPIs offered where one can pay to have them look "deeper" into the engine? Then again, it's a matter of with such low miles, would one want to potentially waste the dough on a more thorough PPI when a 37K mile car shouldn't have such probs?

[Rawknees'Turbo]

^^^

Excellent highlight action for sure! One good thing about the headstuds is that it's easy for a shop to verify that they are not broken, or pulled, by simply removing the rocker covers during a PPI inspection - the tops of the studs, along with the nuts () are very visible, and anyone with experience would be able to tell you right away if there were any that were a cause for concern. That really is a "must do" as a broken stud is very expensive to fix and should affect the sale price tremendously.

[Ski]

I mentioned I'm also looking at an 86 Targa with around 109K miles for 42.5K. Seller purchased from widow for 15K and then put 20K into exterior glass out respray, etc. I'm going to see it this Saturday. He's second owner and hasn't driven but for a few hundred after work was done. Is 20K simply a crazy good exterior refresh or is that typical? Also, has full papers from all services done by one porsche shop. I should have pics tomorrow and will share.

Seller shared: We had new clutch installed 5/16. New michellin pilots, new Porsche targa top, 20,000 complete exterior cosmetic restoration from Porsche certified shop.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by Ski

Did that issue show up in the PPI? If not, is there a tiering of PPIs offered where one can pay to have them look "deeper" into the engine? Then again, it's a matter of with such low miles, would one want to potentially waste the dough on a more thorough PPI when a 37K mile car shouldn't have such probs?

Yes, you always want to have a full PPI done on a 25+ year old car. No exceptions. To do otherwise would be a very expensive gamble. Doesn't matter if it has 37k miles, 3k miles or 300k miles. It's well worth the money. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I've probably spent over $2000 on failed PPIs in the last 10 or so years but I'll bet that's saved me 10 times that in repair bills.

The valve guide issue was discovered during the PPI when I had a compression and leakdown test done. Each shop would probably have a different list of items to check on a PPI, but I always make sure they do a compression and leakdown test to gauge the health of the engine. Doing so will also turn up any broken head studs. In my opinion you should have those tests done on any air-cooled engine (not that they're any more or less susceptible to problems, but it's more of an age/mileage thing - compression/leakdown aren't likely to be a problem on a 5-year-old car). You should also ask to look for evidence of undisclosed accident damage. This can be found both with a paint meter (differing paint depths on different panels) and by looking for repair work underneath (could be welds, bent and straightened pieces, etc).

If it's costing you $100, the mechanic isn't going deep enough. It should run about $200-400, depending on the shop. Usually at least $300 including compression/leakdown.

If the compression test shows one or more bad cylinders (beyond the acceptable figures based on age and mileage), going deeper than that involves removing the engine and getting in a lot deeper, which means more money. At that point you should be either negotiating with the seller to lower the price or moving on to another car. When I bought my 87, I PPI'd another car that had a bad compression test. The seller wasn't willing to lower the price to where I was comfortable taking a risk on a motor that might need a full rebuild, so I passed and moved on. With the car I bought, we negotiated the top-end rebuild into the sale price that was (if I remember correctly) slightly higher than his original asking price, after I'd negotiated it down a bit (or maybe it was the same as the asking price). He paid the bill for the rebuild and I paid for the headstud replacement as well as some regular little stuff that turned up on the PPI. I had the headstuds upgraded "while you're in there", just as insurance against future problems. In the end we were both happy with the price.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Ski

I mentioned I'm also looking at an 86 Targa with around 109K miles for 42.5K. Seller purchased from widow for 15K and then put 20K into exterior glass out respray, etc. I'm going to see it this Saturday. He's second owner and hasn't driven but for a few hundred after work was done. Is 20K simply a crazy good exterior refresh or is that typical? Also, has full papers from all services done by one porsche shop. I should have pics tomorrow and will share.

Seller shared: We had new clutch installed 5/16. New michellin pilots, new Porsche targa top, 20,000 complete exterior cosmetic restoration from Porsche certified shop.

$20k glass out? Ask him to take a photo of the receipt.

Most flippers lie about what they've invested in the car, to make their profits look smaller.
Remember, they're just a nice guy helping you make a deal, and taking a few bucks for themselves.

[mibi]

i just sold a very nice 87 targa with 77K miles for 44K. probably could have sold it a bit higher to a fellow in germany who was interested . definitely do a leak down and compression-- low mileage cars often suffer here.

[Ski]

Hey all

Took a look at the 86 Iris Blue Targa with 109K mi, and talked with the owner a fair amount. As mentioned above, the exterior was brought to the metal, repainted, seals replaced and targa completely refurbed. The new information shared is that included with the repainting was metal work on both rocker panels to eliminate rust.

In talking with a local shop specializing in "torsion bar and air cooled" Porsches, he said for starters the asking price of 42.5K was high and couldn't be justified without having engine and tranny, and perhaps even some suspension work already done. Additionally he shared the most concerning detail for him is the rust in the rocker panels. Said he seldom sees that type of work required unless there was a collision and/or significant rust involved. Suggested I think long and hard, making sure I'm exercising my patience muscles!

Thoughts?

Again, thanks for all your input and teachings!

Forgot to mention he said 1 or 2 cylinders had lost "some" compression, which for the shop was also a red flag. Then rotors and pads are needed 1K in parts, front seats need redying/touch up for 150/each, and eventually carpeting.

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by Ski

I mentioned I'm also looking at an 86 Targa with around 109K miles for 42.5K.

I should have pics tomorrow and will share.

Pics?

[Ski]

[Ski]

Just spoke with seller-for-owner of 89 Targa with 59K mi and selling for 49K. Said lead down/compression test showed 5 cylinders at 180, but one at 140. From all I've read, having the one cylinder at different level is not good. How bad is the fact it's inconsistent and by that much?

Said current owner drove last 15K miles as daily driver whereas prior owner had as part of collection so it sat quite a bit. Also, said he doesn't see smoke and pulls strong...

Finally, I'm thinking it would make sense to have a Pelican check it out before I ask for PPI. What's the process to see if someone in Atlanta area can help? Do I simply create a new post/thread asking for the help?

Thanks!

[specialtyoneinc]

What are the leak down % numbers? If they are all lower than 10% (preferably between 2-5%) the engine is healthy most likely. I wouldn't worry about the 180 compression too much.

[Ski]

Originally Posted by specialtyoneinc

What are the leak down % numbers? If they are all lower than 10% (preferably between 2-5%) the engine is healthy most likely. I wouldn't worry about the 180 compression too much.

I'll see if I can get that metric. I got the sense I wasn't getting the right numbers when he shared "180s" and "140", but no matter the exact numbers, I was and am concerned about the difference in one cylinder.

Good call on asking for the actual numbers and more importantly, the %.

Thanks!

[911 sc]

Originally Posted by Ski

I'll see if I can get that metric. I got the sense I wasn't getting the right numbers when he shared "180s" and "140", but no matter the exact numbers, I was and am concerned about the difference in one cylinder.

Good call on asking for the actual numbers and more importantly, the %.

Thanks!

He's asking for the leak down not compression two different test.

We need both test results, the exact numbers. It will help us determine the condition of the engine.

[Ski]

Originally Posted by 911 sc

He's asking for the leak down not compression two different test.

We need both test results, the exact numbers. It will help us determine the condition of the engine.

Got it. Will get those.

Thanks for clarification......and patience.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Ski, if the cylinder that showed the lowest compression number also showed a troubling leakage percentage, then that would be something to be concerned about.

Also, ask the tech if he was able to determine the source of the compression leakage (past rings = hissing sound in the oil tank, past intake valve = hissing in the intake, past exhaust valve = hissing from tailpipe . . . or was it leakage from between a cylinder head and cylinder = broken or pulled headstud).

[cellison]

Originally Posted by Ski

Just spoke with seller-for-owner of 89 Targa with 59K mi and selling for 49K. Said lead down/compression test showed 5 cylinders at 180, but one at 140. From all I've read, having the one cylinder at different level is not good. How bad is the fact it's inconsistent and by that much?

Said current owner drove last 15K miles as daily driver whereas prior owner had as part of collection so it sat quite a bit. Also, said he doesn't see smoke and pulls strong...

Finally, I'm thinking it would make sense to have a Pelican check it out before I ask for PPI. What's the process to see if someone in Atlanta area can help? Do I simply create a new post/thread asking for the help?

Thanks!

is it the car at Motor Car Studio? i may be able to get over there this coming week.i talked to them about a year ago on consigning my 930 when i was fishing but may be getting more serious on selling it.

[Ski]

Originally Posted by cellison

is it the car at Motor Car Studio? i may be able to get over there this coming week.i talked to them about a year ago on consigning my 930 when i was fishing but may be getting more serious on selling it.

Yep, that's the one. Would you mind checking it out? He seems a bit hesitant to share the compression test numbers and didn't offer the leak %'s, so concerned about that a bit. Less concerning is that he mentioned the top has a "minor leak" driver's side. Said when it was out in rain......that when he next got in it, noticed damp carpeting.

Would greatly appreciate getting your perspective!

Thanks,
Kevin

[Ski]

Originally Posted by Rawknees'Turbo

Ski, if the cylinder that showed the lowest compression number also showed a troubling leakage percentage, then that would be something to be concerned about.

Also, ask the tech if he was able to determine the source of the compression leakage (past rings = hissing sound in the oil tank, past intake valve = hissing in the intake, past exhaust valve = hissing from tailpipe . . . or was it leakage from between a cylinder head and cylinder = broken or pulled headstud).

Will do. I'll even sound like I know what I'm talking about!

[911 sc]

Originally Posted by Ski

Yep, that's the one. Would you mind checking it out? He seems a bit hesitant to share the compression test numbers and didn't offer the leak %'s, so concerned about that a bit. Less concerning is that he mentioned the top has a "minor leak" driver's side. Said when it was out in rain......that when he next got in it, noticed damp carpeting.

Would greatly appreciate getting your perspective!

Thanks,
Kevin

Definitely be concerned have a third party do a ppi . DO NOT TRUST HIS NUMBERS!