86 944 turbo conversion

thelowestone · 11-19-2005, 10:36 AM

what all should be changed on a n/a 944 intenaly to make it safely handle boost ie are the a forged or cast piston and rod.
who makes a good head gasget set for this car and what is a safe amount of bost for street use. how are these cars for portwork and where are problem areas. I am fairly new to building 944's and want to make a contender car

Britwrench · 11-19-2005, 11:01 AM

Do a search, all the answers (and opinions) are there.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Oh boy.

AaronM · 11-23-2005, 02:39 AM

You would need new rods, new pistons, new head (the turbo head is different, ceramic exhaust ports and sodium-filled valves), new exhaust, new DME, new intake, new cooling system, new suspension...

Porsche did not just slap a turbo and some low-compression pistons on the 951 and call it good. You'll spend two or three times the cost of a real 951 trying to convert an N/A.

Aaron

ronin · 11-25-2005, 10:35 AM

you'll also need one of these:

WaA420 · 11-25-2005, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ronin
you'll also need one of these:

Remember they make a great gift.

If I put one on my Pantera will it seem like it is turbocharged, or do I need to start a new thread for that?

ronin · 11-25-2005, 06:47 PM

only DeTomaso knows for sure

gobogie · 11-27-2005, 07:26 AM

Ck out Andy over on Rennlist's 944 board. He has done this conversion and it is the best I've seen.

Cory

xero · 11-27-2005, 10:40 AM

your pistons and head and rods and crak are all fine and will handle 16psi or so (that's what my friend runs in his turbo'd 83 944...with no intercooler) the biggest problem you're going to have will be getting the fuel system to output enough fuel for the added air....getting a MAF sensor and a standalone fuel management would do it, but the stock dme and afm will not, you'll get bad stuff happening after a few lbs of boost (I know from experience), you will probably need bigger injectors too, though you MIGHT be able to get by with the stock ones by upgrading the computer/afm?

Mike Markota · 12-06-2005, 05:43 PM

search 924.org for info. tons of it

also need to think about ignition...

..P · 01-05-2006, 10:55 AM

Here is a visual image of what it takes, from Porsche marketing department.

I think they're trying to make a point here.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426130/message/1136490853

SD Porsche Fan · 02-15-2006, 10:20 AM

Why does everybody dump on someone when they want to get a little more power from their NA? Yes, I realize the expense vs. buying a 951 but I don't think people are trying to recreate a 951 by installing a turbo (IMHO the Porsche ad was used to sell the 951's much larger sticker price by educating potential buyers on what they were getting for their money not because you needed the other improvements or the turbo wouldn't work). They like their car the way it is but maybe with a little more power. So far there doesn't seem to be a way to gain any appreciable hp increase with chips, headwork, exhaust, etc on an NA so why not a turbo?

If you can afford it, and have the ambition and expertise I'd say go for it. It has been done so why not help the guy instead of craping all over his questions.

xero · 02-15-2006, 11:36 AM

Yeah, well said SD Porsche Fan!

xero · 02-15-2006, 11:43 AM

Also people put turbos on stock bottom ended hondas, the N/A 944 is much more durable than a little CRX so why would an N/A need so much more than some crappy japanese car?? Also as I said before my friend has a turbo'd N/A with bone stock crank, rods, pistons and head, and it runs great as fast if not faster than my 951.

x3m944 · 03-10-2006, 12:13 AM

Andy as I recall installed the complete 944 Turbo motor in his black car. It is a nice setup.

Now Speaking from experience - boosting the 944 NA is straight forward. The subject has been discussed at length on most major boards and you will typically get the standard it costs to much, buy a 951, you will spend 3x as much, etc...

The 944 NA vs 944 Turbo motor - not a lot of differences that would limit boost under 1 bar.

If you are going to run more than 6 PSI you might want to swtich to stainless valves in the head - I have gone over 8 with the stock setup.

As for pistons - you could install forged units - but then you get into sleeves or coatings - if coating then swain is the best bet.

Of course if going to that trouble - stroke it making a 2.7 is only an issue of 100 vs. 104mm postons - but does require sleeves.

Now as for the stock unit - if you didnt want to changes pistons but wanted to freshen you engine up - you can get the pistons coated - again swain - very boost and heat resistant.

But lets stick to bolt on mods - turbo or supercharger?

Turbo since thats the subjet at hand - ok:
3 options:
1- log or collector style manifold and turbo on passenger side
2- crossover setup - as seen in factory 944 Turbo - you do not have to use 944 turbo bits here - you can do your own - some work involved but easy enough for someone with some skills.
3- rear mount - not recommended for the naysayer or doubter - but will work - also not for the close minded. But is proven to work. I should know I did it. No its not as laggy as you think.

So you will need a way to get hot exhaust air to turbo, oil to and from turbo and to and from engine - oil lines, and a way to feed charged air to engine.

Since we are talking moderate boost even a smallish ray jay turbo would work or a T3 as seen on the Dodge 2.2 and 2.5 motors. 2.5 exhaust from down pipe back.

For fuel - that is easy - low tech or high tech? I can explain either

Timing simple - 1/2 degree of retard per 1 psi.

Of course their are solutions their as well.

Thats it in a nut shell.

Now as for suspension, trans, and brakes - you can bolt on upgrades. cost varies - trans has its limits - thats a seperate arguement. Just dont drag race and abuse trans, as for limits and how long will last with more power - debatable.

Brakes - wilwood upgrade from Travis over at rennbay is the best.

Suspension - whatever you want.

It should cost you more to upgrade suspension and brakes depending on what you do than to turbocharge a NA.

Of course hard core big $$$ - is usually labor -- if you can DIY you save an then it is a very affordable option.

As for sell your na and buy a 951 - thats debateable - most 951s need work especially to make more power and cost more to maintain.

For a fun car with a little more power boost is a great way to go

x3m944 · 03-10-2006, 12:19 AM

Log style manifold while not the best performer - should only cost a few hundred to make or have made

rebuild turbo - under 300, under 400 new for a T3 or under 500 for a t3/t4 hybrid.

oil lines and tap for oil supply - use braided lines and tap into oil pressure sender/oil filter relocator block. As for oil to pan - you have to tap pan - about 200 for everything. Of course you have to pull oil pan - nice time to add a crank scrapper and free up some power.

As for timing - custom chip is one option, others are MSD or similar boost timing controls.

You could for a little more money do a stand alone oil delivery system - using a electric oil pump - small tank and cooler. Talk about easy to do and no changes to engine block or oil system and no sharing heat between engine and turbo oil.

You can use a boost referenced fuel pump to increase fuel pressure under boost typical is 8:1 or 10:1 ratios increasing fuel pressure 8lbs or 10lbs per 1 psi.

Toss in a single or dual extra injectors depending on boost level and you are done.

daniel951 · 03-10-2006, 10:39 AM

i am selling alot of the parts you would need since i am parting out my 86 951 but to answer your question. Your NA pistons will be fine to be turbocharge and most of the blocks are exactly the same. I have ran NA pisrons in my car for a good while and also so did the previous owner. Of course you can't run high boost but 16psi is fine or even up to 20 psi on race gas. Rods i am unsure of the difference but i believe turbo's are better in which i will be selling my stock rods too.

AaronM · 03-13-2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by x3m944
As for sell your na and buy a 951 - thats debateable - most 951s need work especially to make more power and cost more to maintain.

Um, no.

275 RWHP and 300 RWTQ are obtainable with about $500 in modifications (3.0 bar FPR, Guru chips, mechanical boost controller @ 15 PSI). Any half-educated buyer with half a brain should have no trouble finding a well-maintained and reliable 951 that does not need work. As for costing more to maintain; not really. The clutch is more expensive to replace and if the turbine dies you have problems, but offsetting that is the much more durable transaxle (the regular 944 transaxle has a disturbing tendency to grenade if not treated delicately and this becomes a huge reliability concern if you increase the power output of an N/A 944 engine).

A home-built turbo setup for a 944 N/A will be less reliable than a 951 and while it may not cost as much to fix when it breaks, it will break often enough to make up the difference through nickel and diming. It will also negatively impact the car's resale value and make it essentially un-serviceable by most professional shops.

The issue isn't that it can't be done. The issue is that the cost of a well-sorted-out 951 will ultimately be lower, the 951 will be faster and will handle better as well as being more reliable.

More power to those who want to do it, but there are huge potential pitfalls for someone who doesn't research thoroughly.

Aaron

Britwrench · 03-13-2006, 10:30 AM

Agreeing with Aaron here regarding the Turbo into NA conversions.
Yes, we know it can be and has been done by others.

Is it worth it? If considering what the value will be when selling it, No.

If doing it for the sake of achievement, then possibly. But again, Porsche already did this over 20 years ago.

There are various reasons for wanting to do things and IF you have the time, space, tools, knowledge and commitment it's entirely up to you.

x3m944 · 10:57 PM

Um, Yes.

But I will just say I disagree. 500.00 in upgrades assumes that the 951 in question is well maintained and reliable to begin with.

Comparing cost for cost - selling a 944 NA and buying a 951 vs. modifications executed properly on a 944 NA to add boost.

The 951 arguement only wins out if you have to pay for all the conversion work to a 944 NA.

If you can do it yourself and you do it right. You could stroke the 2.5, run forged pistons and sleeves for a 2.7, set it up with boost and a turbo transaxle, clutch and rear suspension for less than a well maintained and reliable 951 that didnt need work.

Of course their are exceptions to be found - I would rather convert and customize than restore. I hate the newer dash, but thats a different discussion and just opinion and tastes.

As for value - please - a properly converted car would have value - a POS half finished project would not.

It all depends on what the buyer wants. Case in point - Callaway conversions, SFR, BAE, etc... cant judge that market as their are not a lot of example to set the market by.

Of course a SFR conversion would put you over the top.

As for upgrades - So 275 and 300 for 500 in mods.

Not very impressive to me at all as power levels go. Nice improvement, but in my opinion, with the turbo trans installed in a NA with proper clutch and a 2.7 Stroker, well guess it comes down to how much you spend on labor, etc...

Lets look at something like lindsey package:
951 340 RWHP PACKAGE
Code: LR-340-RWHP-PD
Price: $3,749.00

So lets say a proper 951 example comes in at 8 or more, then add 500 to get to 275, then add 3700 to get to 340. Hemm so thats 12200 - not counting anything else that is required like labor to make upgrades....

I think I can get that power level for less from a 944 NA, with brake upgrades, suspension, engine rebuild and some form of boost.

I think others can too...

But I also dont think you need to go that far - to get more fun and reasonable power out of a 944 NA. The devil is in the details and how much you can do for yourself. Besides their are more 944 cars and for that matter, 924S cars collectively than 944 Turbos.

I just keep thinking 1k for a 944 with bad timing belt - rebuild, boost, upgrades -- and you get to keep the early styling oh yea!

Ah anyway - pointless arguement - numbers are skewed - labor and skill are the real factors that have to be weighed, not just $ for $.

Quote:

Originally posted by AaronM
Um, no.

275 RWHP and 300 RWTQ are obtainable with about $500 in modifications (3.0 bar FPR, Guru chips, mechanical boost controller @ 15 PSI). Any half-educated buyer with half a brain should have no trouble finding a well-maintained and reliable 951 that does not need work. As for costing more to maintain; not really. The clutch is more expensive to replace and if the turbine dies you have problems, but offsetting that is the much more durable transaxle (the regular 944 transaxle has a disturbing tendency to grenade if not treated delicately and this becomes a huge reliability concern if you increase the power output of an N/A 944 engine).

A home-built turbo setup for a 944 N/A will be less reliable than a 951 and while it may not cost as much to fix when it breaks, it will break often enough to make up the difference through nickel and diming. It will also negatively impact the car's resale value and make it essentially un-serviceable by most professional shops.

The issue isn't that it can't be done. The issue is that the cost of a well-sorted-out 951 will ultimately be lower, the 951 will be faster and will handle better as well as being more reliable.

More power to those who want to do it, but there are huge potential pitfalls for someone who doesn't research thoroughly.

Aaron