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How much power do you have? How did you get there?
How much power do you have? How did you get there? This isn’t meant to be a competition but more of a road map for enthusiast on the same quest. This will hopefully be an amorphous list of modifications and the results they yield. In my experience there has been more than one way to make power but to efficiently climb Everest is there really just one path to do so safely. My hope is that we can share our experiences so that others can follow a less painful course to the same end.
Imagine Auto has a roadmap, as does Protomotive, Turbo Kraft, Speed Werks and a host of other shops, what I would like to see is a discourse on what the customer finds to meet their needs not necessarily what they have been sold. The DIY guys can weigh in too; I hope to hear from Jim2 and Don Enderlein as well. Hopefully we can meld all our resources to come up with a plan for the DIY and a build sheet for various target HP levels at a given boost, shall we say 1 Bar? Your input will be greatly appreciated. This will be cross posted on Rennlist. |
What are the stock numbers on 911/930? Street legal. Recent pelican has a good standard 911/930 DIY for the how to. How about someone post a link to a thread from last year of how to rebuild a 930 (I think just that thread exhausted the author last year. I think he dynoed it and said was stopping posting).
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438HP/413 TQ - at the wheels
Roadmap: 7.5 compression .8 to .9 bar IA fuel head RPM switch - dalays full enrichment 'til needed K27 HF Zero Clearance turbo No muffler B&B headers Quite easy. Even AFRs. Huge power, and dare I say almost lag free? |
Bull*****... cough, cough. I think you left a few things and a few Benjamins out of that roadmap :)
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I did?
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DSP if you have a legitimate question please be straight forward, this is like theraphy I want people to be free with their info, comments like yours will not aid their candor.
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Add to that big port sc heads with "some" massaging, custom air intake and love... :eek: |
stock 3.2, motronic with turbo stuff intercooled, 350+ conservative.
Tod's chip Begi fmu ben's exhaust and pipes .6 bar and my feeling on this is that anymore boost/power would be completely useless. very cool, very reliable. And cheap to keep going, except for gas. |
I haven't been to the dyno yet. I've been waiting for the missing link, before I pony up the funds for a dyno run: my C2 Turbo intercooler, which will be installed shortly. However, I'll venture to say, based on other dyno sheets from similar builds, that I've got 390 at the wheels:
*K27-7200 *OBX heaterless headers *.80-.90 bar *3.4L Ps&Cs *SC cams *Twin-plug heads *7.3:1 CR *Electromotive XDi crank fired ignition with MAP sensor *B&B intercooler *Borla XR-1 muffler *Imagine Auto fuel head *Brian Leask WUR *Brian Leask RPM solenoid trigger *ARP head studs *ARP rod bolts *C2 bypass valve *Fully de-smogged I think the weakest link in my setup is the basic K27, but one day that'll be changed too;) |
I don't want to dilute SCHNELE's *SPECIFIC* thread about power with this, but another nice thing to go with the HP and TQ increase is LITE WEIGHT!!! I sound like a broken record, but damn, I love to remove stuff from my car!!!!
Maybe that would make for another good thread, how much does it weigh and how did you get there... |
I think we can dove tail this on the same thread Sandman it is a great idea. I am guilty of having a car on the portly side, I have full AC and a McIntosh sound system.
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8:1 Compression JE Pistons, 3.2 Intake, Garrett Turbo, EFI, GHL Headers, Kokeln Intercooler, Euro SC Heads with some work, larger valves = 505 rwhp @ .85bar
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Car: Black/Black 1989 930 ~51,600 miles - 0.9 bar dyno pull to 6000RPM showed 547.9rwhp/520rwtq
Engine (3.5l) ---------------- 3.6RSA crank (76.4mm stroke - narrow counterbalances - balanced and cross drilled) Carrillo rods Mahle Cylinders & (98mm) pistons Cylinders and twin plugged heads ported (42mm) - compression ratio 7.72:1 race valve springs GT2 Evo cams Carrera 3.2 liter intake manifold Stock 3.2 throttle body enlarged to 66mm Siemens injectors 72lb/hr RUF IC B&B Headers Fabspeed Dual out exhaust Custom GT3582R Tial 46 Wastegate, using old billett diverter valve as the BOV MoTeC M48 with continuos Data logging, advanced tuning and Lambda Denso coils High Energy Ignition (HEI) EBC Transmission ---------------- 6-speed G64/51 (from 993TT), Guard TBD Sachs Clutch & Pressure Plate Suspension -------------- Full RSR coilover setup Other ------- A/C system removed |
My goodness... you guys are hardcore this morning http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat.gif
I guess I will have to be more illustrative than with the 914 and BMW guys. I was only trying to make the point that getting to 438whp is no small task. I am positive that Craig put in a ton of blood, sweat, tears and yes, Benjamins (100 dollar bills) behind that effort. Upon intial read of his post it looked like a simple task to bolt up a turbo and set of headers with a few injection mods in the process. My personal research shows that those adders (I gleaned from his post) will only get you to maybe, if you are lucky, 300whp. I don't think my comment was out of line, but I guess I will refrain from adding levity to this serious thread. I will keep my levity for other threads. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gif Anyway, most of you saw my post yesterday from the dyno so you realize I am extremely interested in getting to 300whp. My initial research showed it will take about $5,000 to buy a K-27, a bigger intercooler, a 1.0Bar spring and then you have to do the install yourself. Fortunately I have the Euro CIS so I "might" be able to get away with minimal injection modding. I spent a lot of time talking to our local guru about cams and other perceived "bolt-ons" and unless you are ready to rebuild the motor to match hardware upgrades, the most effective and cost efficient way is to go with the turbo, IC and boost spring. I have a pretty much straight through exhaust but that would be a must also if that is not already on the car. Hopefully that "serious" empirical research will get me off the *****list http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...s/beerchug.gif |
You were not on any **** list, I guess my response was a bit terse because of all the naysayers that seem to pop up on threads like this, I know your comment was somewhat tongue in cheek.
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7.7:1 98mm JE pistons
Pauter rods 3.2 Intake with stock TB 26x 10x 4.5 intercooler (back to front flow) K27HF2 Heads opened to match intake, performance valve job, twin plug, stock valve size 964 cams B&B headers Custom 3.5" muffler Motec M600, lambda, data logging, advance tuning M&W Pro-14 Four channel CDI driving 6 dual M&W coils (wasted spark) 46mm Tial controlled by a Bosch WG control valve Tial BOV 475rwhp at 0.95 bar I feel it should make more power. I think a larger throttle body and different compressor intake will free up a few more ponies. |
DSP,
As you know, a stock '85 930 will produce 255RWHP. You can easily get to 300RWHP with bolt-ons. A modern turbo, intercooler, and a bit of boost. For the sake of this thread you can also get to 300RWHP without adding boost by changing the turbo, intercooler, and adding a set of SC or like cams. For 400RWHP using CIS: - Port Heads - Headers - K27S - iA Fuel Head Mod - Adjustable WUR - Larger Intercooler - 1.0bar Boost - Free Flowing Muffler |
Brian, can you elaborate a little please. My understanding that the cams will require other items to be rebuilt/upgraded/modded also. I would love to not have to go any further than pulling the cam towers and swapping in a new cam profile. But my assumption is that this will move the powerband so associated things like rod bolts, tolerances and cylinder mating surfaces need to be better matched to handle the moved powerband. Anyone here ever just "bolted on" a set of cams with no adverse motor effects?
Oh yeah, as a tangent to this question, for streetability purposes, shouldn't we be more focused on improving the torque curve (moving it down in the rev band/flatter and bigger)? Something tells me I won't be exceeding 120mph very often to use the RPM but the torque will allow me to get there quicker! Wouldn't this also affect which grind someone should choose? I would love to hear a 930 with a lumpy idle... not necessarily mine though in traffic :) |
What you are asking is outside of the main topic but note worthy.
Changing cams is not complicated and requires nothing else to be done. The power band is dependant upon many things besides the grind of the lobes. You move the torque curve with cam timing. Reduction of lag is important for driveability. With a modern turbo and proper cam timing adjustment you can produce sub-2000rpm boost threshold. You can also tune in or tune out a lumpy idle on many mild cams. |
As long as the internals are healthy, getting 390-400 RWHP is truly not that hard and qualifies as "bolt-on -- with adjustments, and no head work at all":
To do that: Headers K27 HF from Kevin SC or 964 cams Fuel head Adjustable WUR - otherwise you more than likely will 'give up' 20hp and 30tq midrange RPM solenoid to delay hinkin' rich until set RPM - for me, 5,200 rpm. YMMV. I have 100% full boost at 3,000 rpm. Lag is not a factor and nearly nonexistent Not hard, requires about $4,000 including cam labor. That sucker will be a r-o-c- k-e-t! With safe AFRs, top to bottom. |
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Hah!! That's funny :) I think Craig listed "the rest" in his signature... |
3.5 twin plug Ca. smog legal. 380 crank h.p. @ .9 boost
3.5 Mahle 7:1 SC cams ARP head & rod bolts twin plug heads Bosch 12 plug distributor stock CIS & wur K27 & 46mm Tial w/g DP i/c SSI's DP muffler Max. power @ 5500 rpm, max torque @ 4000 rpm A/F is 11-12:1 throughout rev range. I have a Brian L. wur I haven't installed. '79 930/DP935 '75 Carrera RS look race car '73 S coupe '68 VW Crewcab w/3.2, 46mm webers, HPV1, 5 sp, & more. |
400 rwhp.
Kokeln intercooler GHL headers Zork tube K27HFS turbo MSD 6AL Tial WG with 1 bar spring Ported heads (for future 3.2 intake and EFI) IA fuel head 964 cams (although I now wonder if I got the correct grind from EBS) ARP rod bolts and headstuds BMC air filter (just had it, so who knows what it added or subtracted) |
433 RWHP
K27HF iA head mod Mahle 3.4 Extensive head work Matched cams to the head work BB headers HPX twin plug 1 bar tial ARP Head studs ARP rod bolts Power flow Magnacore wires C2 intercooler Adjustable WUR |
379 RWHP at .8 bar "Mustang Dyno" little to no intercooler effect on dyno.
3.3 Stock bottom end 930 stock heads with intake port enlarged to 38mm 964 cams (not confirmed) 3.2 intake manifold Powerhaus scrap headers Turbonetics 62-1,V, .87A/R SDS fuel and twin plug spark management Straight through muffler Big grin after driving it |
dont have #s on my motor yet but can give specs
3.3 ltr. bumped to 8 to 1 comp. O-ringed cmw stage 3 heads, 964 cams, arp stuff, 3.2 intake, bell intercooler huge enough to heat up big breakfast on chilly track day mornings, 934/935 single turbo headers, t-36 with mid size exhaust housing, tec 3r, tial w/gate, plan on .8-.9 bar hoping for 500 rwhp trying to make car as light as possible (82 euro 930 with f/glass everything) should be quicker than the 318ti I have been tracking the last several years I do have some #s on my friends car early 76 930 bumped to 3.2 liters, 3.2 intake, big intercooler, 993 n/a headers with twin garrets, this is run by an early tec-2 programmed without a wideband on the dyno several years ago it made 504 at the wheels when the clutch let go (looked like it was headed for 550+) with lots of trq. I believe this run was made at 1.1 or 1.2 bar his car has a re-geared g50 in it that he feels is worth many horses -and yes it goes sideways very nicely |
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I have a very similar build as you - the wur and the IA fuel head. I have the European one and an older crank fires system. I got about 355-360 at ehe wheel. Wow, can the fuel head make that much difference? |
BTW, are we talking pump gas here. Err, wouldn't make much difference.
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And very much like my setup - which has 430-438 RWHP on a Dynojet.
Fuel head will not. It simply makes the AFRs safer and *in general* does not contribute directly to a power increase - -------- Friend also with an '82 has stock internals and stock ignition - before the K27 HFS turbo (and fuel head for safety) he was at 360+- hp. Judging by our last track day together, I highly suspect he is now at 400+ |
Pump gas of course we would like to hear what people are doing on race gas, just that it be noted as such.
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125Shifter-
David, I think your numbers look good. You have the bigger pistons, cams and compression bump and essentially the 3.2 intake matched set up. With a modded CIS, I think you would only be at about 430-440 rwhp at best, so in my non-expert opinion, you are where you should be with a proper EFi! Isn't your car pretty darn fast as is? Just wondering why you want to go to a bigger throttle body. I would think you are cooking the hide off your rear tires right now! LOL. |
http://www.parkplaceltd.com/vehicle.aspx?s=blank&year=1991&make=Porsche&model9 11%20Turbo%20-%20739hp&inv=304&vin=WP0AA2964MS480221&pos=45&curr ent=1&size=50
What the ultimate EFI engine can do - a Holcombe build. http://www.autobase.com/photos/large/02932055t.jpg It isn't 739 at the wheels as the ad says, but still.......YIPES, it is a quick car. I checked it over in person, just down the street. |
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433 RWHP
K27HF iA head mod Mahle 3.4 Extensive head work Matched cams to the head work BB headers HPX twin plug 1 bar tial ARP Head studs ARP rod bolts Power flow Magnacore wires C2 intercooler Adjustable WUR __________________ Stephen 07 997TT 76 911S Targa 87 930 Cab Stehpan what did that yellow car you built years ago put out? Wasn't it 650 or so? |
What we need is for VZ935 to post the dyno results of one of his monsters on here! Talk about being humbled!
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The modified fuel head is not needed until your current fuel head runs out of adjustment and fails to maintain 12.2:1 A/F on boost. That happens somewhere around 375RWHP. |
I dynoed 352 RWHP and 330 ftlbs on a DynoDynamic dyno at 13 lbs of boost. I found out that is the same HP as a stock 996TT but less torque on that dyno.
3.0L 930 motor unknown C/R - stock I think SC cams DTA EFI Full bay intercooler built by me Shorty headers built by me K27 turbo Carrera intake Matched intake ports done by me It is nice to see what dyno is used. I think some are more conservative that others. |
If asked, I'd say the fuel head is required above .8 bar for sustained use, for all track use with modifications that even moderately increase HP (and added stress on the engine), and any other event which would challenge the AFRs - ie hot weather with one or more of the above conditions.
I think I've mentioned in the past that a friend - with absolutely stock internals; ie everything from stock P&Cs, 7.0 CR, stock 930 heads and manifold - but with cams, B&B headers, muffler, & stock K27 - achieved 360+ RWHP. Anyone on this forum with a healthy stock 930 engine can achieve above 360 RWHP on a Dynojet Dyno with: .8 bar K27 HFS Headers Fuel head (RPM switch definitely recommended to delay hog-rich full boost fuel dump until needed) Possibly an adjustable WUR It requires reading up on the fuel management and a medium uderstanding of CIS - beyond that, it isn't actually too hard to do - |
Does my turbo 3.0 SC count? Power at the wheels on a Dynapack...
@5 PSI 234.6 HP/197.1 ft-lb @7 PSI 251.1 HP/234.5 ft-lb Stock 8.5:1 CIS pistons, stock bottom end, stock early SC heads. DC-15 cams, race springs, ARP rod bolts, 993 head studs. IA fuel head, Brian Leask WUR, Rajay turbo (Basically T04B in "V" trim). Stock SC heat exchangers, M&K muffler. Water injection (gaseous intercooler) from Greg at BlowerWorks.net. I can probably tweak it to the 8 PSI range, maybe up to 280 HP or so. Just got home from Watkins Glen. Major positive difference from the 161 RWHP version of the SC. Runs pig rich on the track with the boost on basically non-stop. Still needs some tweaking for track use, but pretty nice on the street. And, Craig, those Z06's are some wicked track machines. Pat |
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