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How much power do you have? How did you get there?

How much power do you have? How did you get there? This isnít meant to be a competition but more of a road map for enthusiast on the same quest. This will hopefully be an amorphous list of modifications and the results they yield. In my experience there has been more than one way to make power but to efficiently climb Everest is there really just one path to do so safely. My hope is that we can share our experiences so that others can follow a less painful course to the same end.

Imagine Auto has a roadmap, as does Protomotive, Turbo Kraft, Speed Werks and a host of other shops, what I would like to see is a discourse on what the customer finds to meet their needs not necessarily what they have been sold. The DIY guys can weigh in too; I hope to hear from Jim2 and Don Enderlein as well. Hopefully we can meld all our resources to come up with a plan for the DIY and a build sheet for various target HP levels at a given boost, shall we say 1 Bar? Your input will be greatly appreciated. This will be cross posted on Rennlist.

Old 09-18-2007, 02:19 PM
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What are the stock numbers on 911/930? Street legal. Recent pelican has a good standard 911/930 DIY for the how to. How about someone post a link to a thread from last year of how to rebuild a 930 (I think just that thread exhausted the author last year. I think he dynoed it and said was stopping posting).
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Old 09-18-2007, 03:43 PM
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438HP/413 TQ - at the wheels

Roadmap:

7.5 compression
.8 to .9 bar
IA fuel head
RPM switch - dalays full enrichment 'til needed
K27 HF Zero Clearance turbo
No muffler
B&B headers

Quite easy. Even AFRs. Huge power, and dare I say almost lag free?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-18-2007, 05:41 PM
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Bull*****... cough, cough. I think you left a few things and a few Benjamins out of that roadmap
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:52 PM
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I did?
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-18-2007, 07:04 PM
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DSP if you have a legitimate question please be straight forward, this is like theraphy I want people to be free with their info, comments like yours will not aid their candor.
Old 09-18-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSPTurtle View Post
Bull*****... cough, cough. I think you left a few things and a few Benjamins out of that roadmap
3.4L, 7.5:1, SC heads, 964 cams, Aase springs & Ti retainers, ARP bolts, MSD CD ignition w/Magnecor wires. B&B stainless headers, K27 high flow ZC by Kevin, Ruf intercooler. No air injection, cold start or plastic CIS manifold. 3 oil coolers. WUR & RPM activated solenoid by Brian Leask, fuel head by Imagine Auto. Zork.


Add to that big port sc heads with "some" massaging, custom air intake and love...

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Old 09-18-2007, 08:42 PM
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stock 3.2, motronic with turbo stuff intercooled, 350+ conservative.
Tod's chip
Begi fmu
ben's exhaust and pipes
.6 bar

and my feeling on this is that anymore boost/power would be completely useless.
very cool, very reliable. And cheap to keep going, except for gas.
Old 09-19-2007, 12:10 AM
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I haven't been to the dyno yet. I've been waiting for the missing link, before I pony up the funds for a dyno run: my C2 Turbo intercooler, which will be installed shortly. However, I'll venture to say, based on other dyno sheets from similar builds, that I've got 390 at the wheels:

*K27-7200
*OBX heaterless headers
*.80-.90 bar
*3.4L Ps&Cs
*SC cams
*Twin-plug heads
*7.3:1 CR
*Electromotive XDi crank fired ignition with MAP sensor
*B&B intercooler
*Borla XR-1 muffler
*Imagine Auto fuel head
*Brian Leask WUR
*Brian Leask RPM solenoid trigger
*ARP head studs
*ARP rod bolts
*C2 bypass valve
*Fully de-smogged

I think the weakest link in my setup is the basic K27, but one day that'll be changed too
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*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
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Last edited by sand_man; 09-19-2007 at 05:17 AM..
Old 09-19-2007, 05:00 AM
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I don't want to dilute SCHNELE's *SPECIFIC* thread about power with this, but another nice thing to go with the HP and TQ increase is LITE WEIGHT!!! I sound like a broken record, but damn, I love to remove stuff from my car!!!!

Maybe that would make for another good thread, how much does it weigh and how did you get there...
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:40 AM
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I think we can dove tail this on the same thread Sandman it is a great idea. I am guilty of having a car on the portly side, I have full AC and a McIntosh sound system.
Old 09-19-2007, 05:49 AM
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8:1 Compression JE Pistons, 3.2 Intake, Garrett Turbo, EFI, GHL Headers, Kokeln Intercooler, Euro SC Heads with some work, larger valves = 505 rwhp @ .85bar
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Old 09-19-2007, 06:26 AM
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Car: Black/Black 1989 930 ~51,600 miles - 0.9 bar dyno pull to 6000RPM showed 547.9rwhp/520rwtq

Engine (3.5l)
----------------

3.6RSA crank (76.4mm stroke - narrow counterbalances - balanced and cross drilled)
Carrillo rods
Mahle Cylinders & (98mm) pistons
Cylinders and twin plugged heads ported (42mm) - compression ratio 7.72:1
race valve springs
GT2 Evo cams
Carrera 3.2 liter intake manifold
Stock 3.2 throttle body enlarged to 66mm
Siemens injectors 72lb/hr
RUF IC
B&B Headers
Fabspeed Dual out exhaust
Custom GT3582R
Tial 46 Wastegate, using old billett diverter valve as the BOV
MoTeC M48 with continuos Data logging, advanced tuning and Lambda
Denso coils
High Energy Ignition (HEI)
EBC


Transmission
----------------

6-speed G64/51 (from 993TT), Guard TBD
Sachs Clutch & Pressure Plate

Suspension
--------------

Full RSR coilover setup

Other
-------

A/C system removed
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1989 930 - 3.5l - M48 - G64/51

Last edited by oms930; 09-19-2007 at 04:41 PM..
Old 09-19-2007, 06:57 AM
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My goodness... you guys are hardcore this morning
I guess I will have to be more illustrative than with the 914 and BMW guys. I was only trying to make the point that getting to 438whp is no small task. I am positive that Craig put in a ton of blood, sweat, tears and yes, Benjamins (100 dollar bills) behind that effort. Upon intial read of his post it looked like a simple task to bolt up a turbo and set of headers with a few injection mods in the process. My personal research shows that those adders (I gleaned from his post) will only get you to maybe, if you are lucky, 300whp.
I don't think my comment was out of line, but I guess I will refrain from adding levity to this serious thread. I will keep my levity for other threads.
Anyway, most of you saw my post yesterday from the dyno so you realize I am extremely interested in getting to 300whp. My initial research showed it will take about $5,000 to buy a K-27, a bigger intercooler, a 1.0Bar spring and then you have to do the install yourself. Fortunately I have the Euro CIS so I "might" be able to get away with minimal injection modding.
I spent a lot of time talking to our local guru about cams and other perceived "bolt-ons" and unless you are ready to rebuild the motor to match hardware upgrades, the most effective and cost efficient way is to go with the turbo, IC and boost spring. I have a pretty much straight through exhaust but that would be a must also if that is not already on the car.
Hopefully that "serious" empirical research will get me off the *****list
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Last edited by DSPTurtle; 09-19-2007 at 07:15 AM..
Old 09-19-2007, 07:12 AM
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You were not on any **** list, I guess my response was a bit terse because of all the naysayers that seem to pop up on threads like this, I know your comment was somewhat tongue in cheek.
Old 09-19-2007, 07:39 AM
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7.7:1 98mm JE pistons
Pauter rods
3.2 Intake with stock TB
26x 10x 4.5 intercooler (back to front flow)
K27HF2
Heads opened to match intake, performance valve job, twin plug, stock valve size
964 cams
B&B headers
Custom 3.5" muffler
Motec M600, lambda, data logging, advance tuning
M&W Pro-14 Four channel CDI driving 6 dual M&W coils (wasted spark)
46mm Tial controlled by a Bosch WG control valve
Tial BOV

475rwhp at 0.95 bar

I feel it should make more power. I think a larger throttle body and different compressor intake will free up a few more ponies.
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Last edited by David; 09-20-2007 at 04:29 AM..
Old 09-19-2007, 08:17 AM
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DSP,
As you know, a stock '85 930 will produce 255RWHP. You can easily get to 300RWHP with bolt-ons. A modern turbo, intercooler, and a bit of boost.

For the sake of this thread you can also get to 300RWHP without adding boost by changing the turbo, intercooler, and adding a set of SC or like cams.

For 400RWHP using CIS:
- Port Heads
- Headers
- K27S
- iA Fuel Head Mod
- Adjustable WUR
- Larger Intercooler
- 1.0bar Boost
- Free Flowing Muffler
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 09-19-2007, 08:46 AM
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Brian, can you elaborate a little please. My understanding that the cams will require other items to be rebuilt/upgraded/modded also. I would love to not have to go any further than pulling the cam towers and swapping in a new cam profile. But my assumption is that this will move the powerband so associated things like rod bolts, tolerances and cylinder mating surfaces need to be better matched to handle the moved powerband. Anyone here ever just "bolted on" a set of cams with no adverse motor effects?
Oh yeah, as a tangent to this question, for streetability purposes, shouldn't we be more focused on improving the torque curve (moving it down in the rev band/flatter and bigger)? Something tells me I won't be exceeding 120mph very often to use the RPM but the torque will allow me to get there quicker! Wouldn't this also affect which grind someone should choose? I would love to hear a 930 with a lumpy idle... not necessarily mine though in traffic
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:56 AM
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What you are asking is outside of the main topic but note worthy.
Changing cams is not complicated and requires nothing else to be done. The power band is dependant upon many things besides the grind of the lobes. You move the torque curve with cam timing.
Reduction of lag is important for driveability. With a modern turbo and proper cam timing adjustment you can produce sub-2000rpm boost threshold.
You can also tune in or tune out a lumpy idle on many mild cams.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 09-19-2007, 10:08 AM
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As long as the internals are healthy, getting 390-400 RWHP is truly not that hard and qualifies as "bolt-on -- with adjustments, and no head work at all":

To do that:
Headers
K27 HF from Kevin
SC or 964 cams
Fuel head
Adjustable WUR - otherwise you more than likely will 'give up' 20hp and 30tq midrange
RPM solenoid to delay hinkin' rich until set RPM - for me, 5,200 rpm. YMMV.

I have 100% full boost at 3,000 rpm. Lag is not a factor and nearly nonexistent

Not hard, requires about $4,000 including cam labor. That sucker will be a r-o-c- k-e-t!
With safe AFRs, top to bottom.

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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno

Last edited by Craig 930 RS; 09-19-2007 at 02:11 PM..
Old 09-19-2007, 02:08 PM
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