very clean set-up Brinkley, you set the bar there amigo :)

thanks raceman, good luck andy

Thanks for the excellent write up, Brink.

Here's a quick update....

The "new" 3.3l cylinders are in. Still waiting on the heads, but I'm told they should be done soon. I've been doing some odd end things: new rear shocks, lid shocks, sound pad, boost gauge, and painted the alternator housing. Here are some pics...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211513071.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211513084.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211513106.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211513118.jpg

I love this project but please... get the fan and shroud done properly.

I know about the old 'to each their own' thing but please, for me ;(.

Not a fan of the black?? Red is too much bling for me.

no it needs to be sand blasted then painted I think is what he meant? oh yeah did you figure out the boost gauge? I forgot to take pics and probably because I am sick of taking my car apart

I went with Les' suggestion, and even though I cleaned the surface real well, it does have that broom-like finish from up close.

Regarding the boost gauge, it all made sense after reading this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?t=246866&highlight=brake+booster+ga uge

hmmm.l think you`re doing a really good job with the car,congrats. When l had my motor apart l did the fan and shroud;powedercoated them both red. lf l were to do it again l would blast the fan itself clean and once l had the factory nice finish l`d clear it.There is clear powdercoat. no offence but on the 911 engine when you pop the hood the fan/shroud takes center stage weather you like it or not,,,,,yours is curtain call time brother,no bueno. Boost gauge is nice but PSI is seems much more accurate to read over the "bar". Points for origin though,it IS german spec..

None taken! As spence said, to each his own. As you would likely suspect, I think it's pretty freakin sweet looking. When the engine is all back together and you're not looking at it up close, it'll be hot :o

Andy, yours still looks better than mine as mine is still original and nasty looking, hurts me everytime I open the lid. I went to remove it and the shroud but the wiring off the alternator went right into the back of the engine bay out of sight, I was pressed for time so I just reassembled. Before I attempt it again can you tell me where the wires disconnect, I really want to get the fan cleaned up.

Cool amigo,cool. You seem to have the required fastidious nature suited to Porsche ownership, we`re all detail freaks right? l`m looking forward to hearing about your first drive:)

Hi,
Heh, I'm the guy with the broom paint job recommendations!! I am a Fraq'ing Art-eest with a Broom!!! But seriously, it looks fine to me in black. You could do the Pulley in Silver. I Did my Fan Surround and pulley in Powdercoat Silver(They called it chrome), and the fan in Red. BLING, BLING, BLING!!! I was going for a Red and Aluminum look.

You can see the Link called hack job in my sig for a view. There is no doubt that the brake caliper paint looks a ton better than it did, and is understated compared to the BLING some uf US do. Over the years Porsche has done some questionable styling in my opinion also. I lived thru the op-art and hounds-tooth check years and never thought those styles were kewl at all. He likes his fan black, to each his own, ehh?

When he said fan shroud, I thought he meant the plastic shrouding on the top of he motor. I worked with that Caliper paint and never did figure out why lt always looked so "coarse". Not sure how to describe it. It's tough paint though and that black paint job will last a long time I'm certain of that. The only thing worse than no fingernail polish is chipped finger nail polish, if you know what i mean!

Hey it does not matter regardless it not ours. Here is my fan podwercoated in machine greyhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1211927537.jpg

that looks sweet ben, did you have to take out the centre pieces of the fan? Or were they masked, did you get a build up and clearence issues?

Hi,
I think I can answer this question!! The fan is a very tight fit. I had to sand the edges of the fan blades after powder coating. That is how close the fn fit's. Makes's sense when you think about it. If you powder coat the surround and the fan blades, you will get clearance issues. I then sanded down the edges of the fan blades till it fit. I was amazed at the precision of the fan blade fit, typical Porsche. I'm sure they didn't want to lose 1 cc/min flow due to being sloppy in their fit. So you have to fit the fan after powder coating, at least that is my experience. Ohhh,by the way, this means you have to take the fan apart...

Just got word today that the heads are done!! We should be rockin and rollin like crazy by next week :)

masked the center and did not powder coat much of the ends of the blades. still looks the same..

Head Gaskets
 

Doug and I went to install the heads and realized that no head gaskets were included in the "Cylinder Head Gasket Set" for the "911 Carrera (1984-89)" (part #930-100-907-04-M17 here on Pelican), that I purchased from Pelican. I called Pelican, and they informed me that there were no head gaskets needed for the 3.2 Carrera. My confusion was compounded because of the following diagram in the Bentley manual:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213146021.jpg


The customer service rep had a Bentley manual for the 84-89 Carrera as well, but his did not contain that diagram. Anyways, I did some searching around in the forums and it sounds the general consensus for 3.3's and 3.2's is that there are no head gaskets. However, there is definitely a groove on my cylinders (3.3L) where I presume a gasket should go:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1213146247.jpg

Is it possible that mine are flame ringed and thus need head gaskets? If so, does anyone have a suggestion on where to buy them? Thanks guys.

Definitely look like head gaskets. You could try ebsracing.com

The more reading I do, the more I think my cylinders have been machined for flame ring. I'm also reading that the heads must be machined as well to accept the ring. In which case, I'd either need to send my heads out to get machined again, or get different cylinders. How can I tell the difference between whether it just needs a gasket or if it needs a ring?

I've cut my heads for C2 Turbo gaskets and they are about 8-10 mm wide and flat. There is a huge difference between the C2 Gaskets and what you have. Also, the cylinders are not touched for the C2 Gaskets.

those are cut for flame rings, 3.3 cylinders did not use the CE style gasket like the 3.0L. I would cut your heads for the flame rings or start with different cylinders. If you need any specs on the flame rings let me know, I currently have my 3.3 apart that is using them.

Dan

I'm also reading that some 3.3L cylinders were designed to accept crush rings. Would there be any difference in the cylinder heads for cylinders needing crush rings versus those that do not?

Andy,

Looking at the close-up pics you have I would say too that your cylinders are cut for flame rings. Both the motor in my car and a spare/parts motor I have had flame rings and look like you're pics.

Assume of course that your heads have the same groove? If you can't find the rings, which should be stainless, try JB Racing in FL.

Paul

Yep, those are 3.3 cylinders that have been flame ringed. Plus, you definitely have higher compression pistons in there. The factory 3.0, 3.3l pistons did not have valve reliefs.

Thanks for the confirmation guys. Doug had the following questions that I would like to pass on to you guys:

"Can you ask somebody if we can just get the crush rings and use them on what
we have? I don't know if the head has to have the same recess as the
cylinders. Another question would be can we just use the flat gaskets on
the set up we currently have? It did look like the flat gasket would cover
the metal part even with the recess and seal."

The flat gaskets that he is referring to are the cylinder to case gaskets. I received 2 sets of 6 flat gaskets from Pelican in the engine gasket, so we'd have enough to make do if this is a viable solution.

Definitely not. You should send the heads and cylinders out to EBS or somebody who does this type of work so the proper sized flame rings are used.

+ 1 what he said!!

Please don't take offense to the offending comment I am about to make...

You don't really want to do this as half ass as all your suggestions do you?

These cars are a pain to tear down and just the gasket costs alone are enough to deter screw-ups to most mortals.
It looks like you have two options.

1) Send the cylinders and heads off to get the grooves cut in the heads. They may not need the cylinders, who knows.
2) Buy new Cylinders and most likely Pistons

You can't use the cylinder base gaskets, they are copper and have cut-outs in them for the head studs, at least the one's I have used. If you use the C2 Gaskets, I think it is GUARANTEED to leak. Keep in mind that all these gasket solutions need to be done with proper machine work or they are WORSE than no gasket. It the C2 Gaskets are not cut right they leak, if the flame rings are not cut right they leak.

Trying to shortcut here, as in most Porsche things, will reap only grief and disappointment in the end.

None taken. I don't want to nor will I cut corners. This whole project has been quite a learning experience for me, not only in Porsches, but in cars in general. I'm just trying to explore all of the options and mitigate costs insomuch that is safe. If I had unlimited resources, this whole project would look a lot different. Thanks for your input.

Would there be any issue with keeping my pistons and getting a different set of 3.3L cylinders?

Hi,
Have your Pistons Mic'd, you may be able to get away with that. Most buy them as a set though, Piston's and Cylinders.

I talked to Dave @ Road & Race, and when he found out about the situation he immediately offered to swap the cylinders & pistons out for another set. He wanted the pistons as well since it's a matched set. By the way, next to Ben, Dave has been one of the best guys to deal with during this project in terms of customer service.

+1 : Dave's a good guy.. helpful and always has a ton of parts!

Talked to him many times and finally got to meet-up with him this year up at the Hershey swap! I couldn't believe he came all the way out here from Cali.

Paul

If any of you guys have or know of an Andial Signal splitter for a Carrera for sale, I'd be interested in purchasing it. I'm thinking it'll be easier to run the wiring while the engine is out, rather than waiting for the winter.

Surprisingly, I already found an Andial splitter at a decent price! :)

It's my understanding that a twin plug ignition mitigates detonation and thus allows you to run higher compression and have a smoother running engine. It seems (please correct me if I'm wrong) like there is a common benefit between twin plugging and intercooling. If that is the case, can a twin plugged ignition supplement an intercooler up to a certain level of boost? It seems to be the common approach that when turbo charging a Carrera that an intercooler is necessary beyond a certain amount of boost (.5 BAR with stock 9.5:1 compression). I'm just wondering if your ignition were twin plugged and you had no intercooler if that would allow for higher boost levels before needing an intercooler.

I'm getting the feeling that someone is going to tear me up for this thought, but I'm used to it by now :) I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Andy, love what you are doing.

I am not an expert but I do not think you need twin plug on your turbo. Porsche did not do so on its 993 TT. With the flat top pistons the flame dose not have to travel over the piston and it has a very open path.

Once you come up on boost with all that fuel packed in there it wants to bury even faster. Than is why the timing must be backed off on turbos.

Twin plugging helps CIS turbos in that they have issue getting proper Air Fuel ratios and the twin plug helps them fire. With EFI you will not have that problem.

Just my opinion, that is another $1-2k that is not going to give you the payback. Also, you will need to get your chip set for it.

Where did you get your tube from turbo to intake?

Respectfully, I have to disagree with you here. He doesn't have flat pistons as eveidenced by his CR he stated. Even if his pistons were flat, ala 3.3 turbo pistons, he would still need dual plugs. Gas just ain't the same as it used to be!! 97mm or so, is a big area to light from one offset plug. I say dual plug your motor and tune it like it was single plug'd. If anything, retard it a little. At 9.5 CR he needs dual plugging more than anybody else here. EFI does nothing to correct piss poor octane. You can run your AFR's down to 9:1 and it don't compensate for ***** fuel! ***** fuel is ***** fuel, no matter how rich it is. (Defined: ***** fuel is anything you buy at a gas station)

Over half the expense has already been realized as I've paid for the machining of my heads and the Andial splitter. I'm not very far away now, so I would like to go the distance with the twin plugging.

Ben @ M&K supplied the tubing. There should be a picture of it somewhere in this thread.


Actually, I am aiming at 8.0:1 - 8.5:1. I thought I was going to end up with 8.0:1, but I had to send those pistons back with the cylinders that were machined for flame rings. I'm waiting to hear from David to see what he can get me.

I am definitely on the same page concerning the unreliability of gas, but I'm wondering specifically if a twin plug ignition can substitute for an intercooler up to some level of boost?

Again, I am not an expert. Just a cost v preceved benifit thing.

Twin Plugging offers big insurance in a normally asperated motor and w the gas were getting is a better idea more and more.

It sure can not hurt a turbo motor but I do not think it adds much in the way of insurance here as people seem to think. It is cool.

Usually, it dose not do much for a EFI low compression turbo motor from what I understand. It can add a small bit of additional torque on pre boost with the faster burn rate. Dose not contribute much of anything on boost interms of safety or power.

Again, this seems why Porsche did not put twin plugging on its 8/1 CR 993 TT motor even-though it already had twin plugging on the 964 NA motors. Same for their tt GT2 race motors I believe.

It is all good and better to have it than not. Just a dollars for benefit thing. Same money put on a good inter-cooler might creat more insurance / benifit.

Again, love what you are doing and considering the same.

911St
I get what you are saying about the factory not using it on the TT, but it would be a sin not to at least drill the heads for twin plug while they were out of the car even if they werent going to be used immedeatly. I made that mistake when I did my heads origonally and up until I popped my motor I was kicking myself for not doing it. I agree with you about spending the money on a good intercooler, that is key- but I would drill the heads to keep the options open later.