I've got a few methanol/water injection questions for you turbo carrera guys:

1. On a 3.2 Carrera with the stock Bosch AFM, is it OK to install the injection nozzle in the charge pipe between the turbo and the AFM, such that the vapor will pass through the AFM?

2. Manufacturer's such as Snow Performance state that liquid cooled engines with methanol/water injection can safely run up to 30 psi boost without an intercooler. What would you recommend is the safe limit for an '87 Turbo Carrera with 8.0:1 compression, twin plugs, stock Carrera injectors & methanol/water injection?

3. Are there any Turbo Carrera guys out there using Methanol/Water Injection?

"Manufacturer's such as Snow Performance state that liquid cooled engines with methanol/water injection can safely run up to 30 psi boost without an intercooler"

NOT

"Manufacturer's such as Snow Performance state that liquid cooled engines with methanol/water injection can safely run up to 30 psi boost without an intercooler"

Hey, this ain't your slutty sister's Subaru!

No kidding. That's why I need some advice! ;)

Mine is not a Carrera but I am running a 3.2 intake with 9.5:1 compression. The most boost I have tried is 8lbs with both a full intercooler and meth injection. My intake temps are surprisingly cool (to me) rarely getting over 100F at peak boost. I think the only way to really explore the limit is with an advanced knock detection system and a lot of nerve. I tried the simple knock system available for megasquirt but over about 4500 RPM where I needed it most, it was unusable. If I really wanted to push things I would get the J&S Vampire module. Maybe when the budget allows.

Wow - that's a very cool setup you have. Thank you for your input. I'm not looking to eke out every last HP from my machine - just looking for reliable power.

Did you install your injector in the throttle body? Or before? Do you have an temperature gauge before and after your IC/injection?

I am running a CoolingMist system for injection with a single injector at the outlet of the intercooler proximal to the throttle body. I am running a speed-density EFI so I don't have a "barn door" AFM (MAF) to worry about. Ideally, you would like to have an injector for each cylinder or, at least one for each half of the intake plenum. It is a much greater challenge installing injectors on the intake manifold than on the intercooler piping though. I feel I get better atomization and more uniform distribution of the methanol where it is currently located. It has cost me one MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor already as my MAP sensor was located in the ECU and was siphoning methanol. I have since moved my MAP sensor into the engine compartment at a level above the throttle body.
My methanol injector system is only a 2-D map based on boost not load. It has the capacity for 3-D mapping but I can't get an analog 0-5V load signal out of my ECU like what comes from your AFM. I have plans to add a hot-wire mass air flow sensor (MAF) in the future to give me the 3-D capability. The other alternative is to go with MS3 control of the meth injection directly but I already have the CoolingMist controller wired in.

Thanks again for the great info! For now, I'm planning to go with the single injector in the charge pipe in order keep this within budget. I was running OK without an I/C or water/methanol injection before, so I'm viewing this as added insurance.

Right now, I'm thinking about going with the Snow Performance Stage 3 Boost Cooler. The software creates a delivery map based on boost and/or injector pulse width. This sounds like a nice upgrade over systems driven solely off of boost, as it gives you more flexibility to dial in the injection and prevent soak.

Thoughts?

Hard to tell from the website. It looks pretty much similar to the CoolingMist although I am not certain how the boost/pulse-width injector function works. It still looks like a 2-D map only. You need some other indicator such as RPM input combined with boost or pulse width, or a true MAF signal to generate a 3-D map and tailor your injection. IIRC, the Carrera MAF sensor maxes out at less than maximum mass airflow so may not be usable in this setting. OTOH, I think most meth/H2O injection systems out there are only 2-D including my current setup.

Update
 

Warning: This post is going to full of "Todd said this" and "Todd said that". Forgive me in advance!

I spoke with Todd at Protomotive this afternoon, and, as always, he was very patient and helpful. I asked him what he thought about using Water/Methanol Injection (WMI) w/o an intercooler on a Turbo Carrera, and he was all for it, provided that the system is installed properly and with safeguards. Great! This seems consistent with the current WMI thread in this forum:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/563939-water-methanol-injection.html

I next told Todd that I'd like to end up somewhere in the 400-450 HP range and asked him how he'd recommend getting there for my setup. He advised replacing my stock Carrera fuel injectors with 944 Turbo injectors, upgrading my fuel pump if I should ever want to go past 450 HP, as the stock Carrera fuel pump is good up until 475, and reprogramming my ECU. Specifically, he recommended either a GT2 fuel pump or a Bosch 044 pump. Next came music to my ears... he went on to say that with my setup I'd safely be able to run 1.2 BAR boost! That should get me close to 500 HP :D

I definitely won't be skimping on the WMI system. Todd has installed a number of WMI systems in the past, including AEM and Aquamist. I'm starting to reach out to guys on this forum who live in my area and have professionally installed these systems. More to come.

Todd mentioned that to fine tune my engine once everything is installed that it would be most ideal to provide him with an air/fuel log as well as ignition data, the latter being of lesser importance. Does anyone know what he means by ignition data? Is this something that most dyno tuners would be able to get a read on?

I'm also starting to think more about replacing my Carrera heat exchangers with headers. I'll have to figure out how to get around the cumbersome 964 dizzy if I do. Todd mentioned that I should be able to achieve full boost 1000-1200 RPM sooner with a set of decent headers. When I had the turbo on previously, I was hitting full boost around 4k rpm. I'm starting off by looking at the GSF headers. Merv successfully ran them on his setup without an issue, but he's not around for a long term update. I'd be curious to hear your input on this topic. I started a separate thread earlier today to kick it off:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/564067-long-term-review-gsf-headers.html

Thanks in advance.

Hey guys,

Quick update. I started the below thread a few weeks ago to kick around whether I should stick with my Montronic ECU, add a piggyback or go to a full blown aftermarket EMS:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/564876-stick-montronic-go-aftermarket-engine-management-system.html

Everyone's input pointed to the convincing benefits of an aftermarket EMS, but the cost of it all made my stomach churn! Fortunately, a fellow Pelican was looking to get out of a complete system that he purchased from Chris Carrol of Turbo Kraft. We were able to strike a deal, so I pulled the trigger on an Electromotive TEC-3R customized by Clewett Engineering. Here are the details of the system:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/529427-fs-engine-management-ecu-electromotive-tec3-efi-porsche-used.html

I'm really pumped about this EMS! It's going to solve the issues I've had with my stock AFM and eliminate the cumbersome 964/993 dual head distributor! It will also provide me the capability of running a knock sensor, a 3D map for water/methanol injection (WMI), integrated boost control and of course much more controlled, accurate fuel injection and ignition timing.

I'm planning to have Adam Hennessy (BoxxerSix on Pelican) of Rennessy Fabrication do the install and necessary fab work for the EMS, exhaust, intake plumbing & WMI system. I was initially attracted to having Adam work on my car because of his experience with fabrication and WMI installs on 911s. He's been very patient with me and sympathetic to my budget. He's a very meticulous guy and generous with sharing his knowledge. I'm looking forward to working with him. We're tentatively planning the install for late February/March time frame.

Adam recommended going with the Aquamist HFS-3 WMI system. We're planning to have the windshield washer reservoir feed the system, and we'll be running one nozzle on each side of the intake plenum. Here are some additional details of the HFS-3:

Howerton Engineering Aquamist HFS-3

I've decided to go with a set of headers that fellow Pelican YermanCars used on his beast. The headers were built by AMS of Chicago (www.Amsperformance.com), and Yerman made over 500 HP on the headers. He's selling because he went twin turbos. Here's a link to some pictures:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-used-parts-sale-wanted/506322-fs-3-2-3-3-turbo-headers.html

More to come!

Sounds like a great plan. I like the idea of 2 WMI injectors, I actually have purchased the parts to convert mine to 2 injectors directly into the intake. I would be interested in seeing how he places the injectors in the manifold. I had my intake out recently to convert over to sequential injection and CNP ignition and looked at it for placement options of the injectors. I decided to defer to a later time though as a solution did not "pop" out at me.

Hi Steve,

Here's when Adam had to say about the placement of the injectors:

Nice headers.

Me, I would put an air to air intercooler or maybe a water to air intercooler on it if I had to keep the stock deck lid.

There has to be a reasion this is done over liquid intercooling by almost everyone.

But that is me.

Should be a crazy fast car.

Adam is a good choice to work on your car- I was impressed whe I saw his thread involving a 16G turbo for a Mitsu Evo and how he made an anti surge compressor cover for it by hand (looked like a baby HTA 35R...) The car will be mint when he is done without a doubt.

Now that the stock AFM will be removed, that may be a possibility. I spoke to Gerhardt of Bell Intercoolers a few years about customizing an I/C for my deck lid, and he told me flat out that an efficient intercooler could not be placed under my lid. Of course, this was with the provision that the incoming air was blowing over the a/c condenser. A few folks have recommended moving to a 930 condenser and getting a half bay I/C, but again, can you get an efficient I/C to fit under one half side of a carrera tail? Probably not worth the money. The other option is to go with an underbelly condenser. This involves a lot of hassle, and for how much benefit?

I've had a number of folks validate the WMI as a substitute for an air to air I/C. Todd from Protomotive said I'd be good to go as long as I stick to 1.2 BAR or less. I think the most significant reason why a lot of folks have steered clear of WMI is the "what is something goes wrong" line of thinking. And that's totally legit! This is one of the reasons why I'm working with Adam, as he has a lot of experience installing these systems with fail-safes. The TEC-3R gives me even more opportunity ensure that it operates correctly (trim boost or ignition if something goes wrong).

Kris, thanks for the vote of confidence in Adam. He seems like the right man for the job.

Any idea on where the injectors are going to be placed in the intake specifically? Are they going to weld bungs in or simply drill, tap, and screw? Any links to pics of 964 or 3.2 install photo's?

Hi Steve,

Good questions. I'll shoot Adam an email and see if he can provide some additional info.

Thought I'd post some of my engagement pics from last year. I drove the 911 down to South Carolina where my wife was living at the time to get the pics taken, and the photographer incorporated the old p-car :)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288308519.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288308535.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288308547.jpg

Nice! Car ain't bad either!

Damn Andy- were you guys trying to make soft porn on the Porsche?
Nice pictures!

Absolutely. Stage name is Buck Naked.

Gotcha- I was dubbed "Arnold Schwolenpecar" :D

Another item I need to address with my build is the squat factor. Even with just 10 psi of boost and new rear Sport Bilsteins shocks, the backend really hunkers too far down. I imagine at 16-18 psi, this is going to be even worse! Would changing to larger torsion bars help the squat? Or is another approach recommended?

The cheapest and most effective way would be yes- thicker torsions. You can also do coil overs to the back and use them as helpers to the existing torsions. Or you can scrap the torsions, reinforce the strut tower, and do a coil over setup that has heavy springs. But I am going to go with just doing the torsions as most cost effective

I went up to 26 in the rear and changed from the HD Bilstein to the sport. It made a huge difference. I'm no longer seeing blue sky, I can actually see the road when I hit boost. I had 28's on for a while but they were just too harsh for street driving around here.

Kris and Steve, thanks for the input!

Steve, what's your approximate peak HP? And what brand torsion bar did you end up going with?

You can add coil overs and keep your torsion bars too! That way you don't have to strengthen the strut towers, and you can quickly change the springs.... I thought quite a few people did that?

IIRC, sway-a-way solid bars. I would have liked 27 but the lowest front bar other than stock was 21 and I wanted a bit more spread in the size so I am actually running stock front bars to reduce understeer. I don't know my HP numbers but I am running 9-10 lbs of boost (0.6 to 0.7 bar) on my 3.2SS. Enough that I can't keep the tires on the road in 2nd and 3rd is a problem in cold weather.

If you have a race car with those adjustable rear camber boxes, the more you raise the control arm pivot, the less geometric anti-squat (and rear anti-lift for braking) there is.

obx...:d

I am also running a megasquirt in my 3.2 carrera (stock 9.5:1). I do not have an intercooler or meth yet (planning one or the other this winter) and run .6 BAR without any noticeable knocking. Can you share what type of advance you run in boost? I taper from 32 down to 19 at 160 kPa. Would love to learn what you have used successfully. I have been afraid to dial up the advance in part from fear of the unknown and part the high MAT values. I get up to around 180 at full boost in the heat of summer.

THanks,

Larry

I am running MS2 wiht MSExtra 2.1.0. I added an output circuit to the V3.0 board (simple pull up cicuit with a tansistor in the Proto area) and use the MSExtra Output function to control it. This allows a combination of two variable to activate the circuit. I programmed it to come on at RPM >3000 and MAP > 90kPa. I ran this to a relay that will control a pump for the meth injection when I add it. A nozzle size of 4 GPH will give me a range of 13-16% fluid to air from 3000/90 to 6500/160. Guidelines seem to be 12-25%, so figure I should be good without variable injection.

Larry

I put a Megasquirt on my 3.2 after having problems with unstable/undesirable AFRs using Todd's chip. Total cost was less than $500 and a fun project. Wiring was unpleasant, but the only real hard work was fabbing up a trigger wheel. on the balancer.

It has given me full control and I am running .6 boost with the stock injectors and a BEGI FFPR. My injectors are running about 80% duty cycle at max and have more pressure in the pump to go further, as Todd suggested to you.

Larry

Larry,

Are you saying that at .6 bar you see about an 80 deg rise without an intercooler?

Thx.

My steady cruise MAT will vary, but I typically see about a 50*+ rise when I go from a temp stable cruise to a WOT run up to 6K. My MAT typically runs 130-150 in cruise in the warm months. Some of this could be the older T04E turbo as well. I have been hanging around researching lately as the seals have gone and burning oil. I am looking for a new or used GT30 or GT35. Would welcome opinions on best mid-RPM performance and quick spool up.

Larry

Interesting.

Just a thought but if you are seeing a temp rise at cruse I wonder if the Synchronic BOV might help. It vents the turbo boost at cruse so it can free wheel and reduce exhaust back pressure. With acceleration it slams shut for more instant boost.

Larry,

You asked about a fast spool mid range turbo.

I am intrigued by the new Garrett GTX3076R. Compressor wheel is sized between the to small GT30's and big boy GT35's.

It is also part of the new school of forged wheels that are lighter, flow more for there size, and more efficient.

Quick Update
 

Not all of the funds came together for me to tackle the engine work this year - hopefully next year!

I've decided to move forward instead with the brake upgrade. I figure it's more prudent to do this first before making the car stupid fast! My p-car is up at Specialty Cars in Allentown (Specialty Cars Service Center- Performance Specialists) being serviced and having a fresh set of Continental ExtremeContact DWS tires being centered and balanced. The rears stay the same at 255/40ZR -17, but I'm bumping the fronts from 205/50ZR -17 to 225/45ZR -17. This should add braking capacity.

Towards the end of next month I'll be taking her down to Delaware to Steve Timmins shop (InstantG's Home Page). He'll be adapting a set of 996 Carrera 2 Calipers and installing them in my car - along with new Zimmerman rotors, Master Cylinder, Rotor Cooling kit and Cool Carbon pads. I've been convinced that the 996TT brakes would be overkill and that the 996 NA brakes are probably all I'll ever need. Additionally, the 996 brakes are lighter, have better bias and are less flashy :)

I'm looking forward to trying out the new bite!