I'm curious as well. I tried to go with slow 90 degree turns (2 coupled 45 degree turns) from the turbo to the throttle body). It makes sense to me that the more turns you have in this section, the less efficient the turbo will be. I didn't have much of a choice in regard to the plumbing from the air filter to the turbo. Would all those bends have a significant negative effect on the turbo and/or its efficiency? I don't know, but I'd like to learn.

Thanks
 

Andy,

I'm not sure of there will be a way to quantify how it effects your boost but keep us posted if there are any issues.

I realize (like mine) that 930's have a lot of plumbing involved, but it is a pre-fabbed pipe that is a solid unit without any restrictions for the most part.. meaning less then I think you will have... including edges of fittings, tubing seams, etc.

The project turned out great. I have been following silently since the first post. Great job!

Thanks,
Bryan

Your point is well taken. I paid close attention when cutting all the pipes to smooth the edges with a file or bench grinder where necessary. I think the collective negative effect of the plumbing between the turbo and the throttle body will be pretty unrecognizable. With no intercooler, I'm hoping this setup will spool very quickly.

I'm more so concerned about the air filter plumbing. I have an alternative set of plumbing and an air filter to run behind the rear wheel which has only one 90 degree bend. I'll run some tests to see at what RPM a given boost level is reached. Should be interesting. I'm also curious about how much the ambient air temperature has an effect on the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo. With these two air filter setups (one in the rear wheel well and one in the engine compartment) combined with the Andial air temp gauge, I should be able to make some conclusions.

You won't pick up any dirt in the engine bay unlike outside of it.

It's the water I'm concerned about.

My airfilter is directly on my turbo, it does get dirty (more dirty than it would if it was inside the car no doubt) but not as bad as you'd imagine, if you have a look it's well out the way of the wheel flicking stuff up and quite well protected in there. Even when it's pissing down and I go for a drive I always check the filter and it doesn't get wet, it's well out the way. I just like how it simplies the whole setup. Many people run pod filters right up the front of their cars where it would get quite wet with little problem, you can always get a sock to cover it if that's your concern.

I really dont think water is an issue either way unless it was drowned in it.

Oh and by the way my car is a wide body so maybe on a narrow car like yours Andy the turbo entry is more in line with the wheel plus you moving your turbo an extra few inches that direction...

Your intake plumbing doesn't look restrictive to me, less restrictive than a stock 930 bend and intake.

Hey Spence - I replied to your email. When I took my car out the other day, it was raining, and I was using the air filter with a plastic guard in the rear wheel well. When I took down that plumbing to install the plumbing to put the filter in the engine compartment, a good bit of water poured out.

With your setup, I've never worried about the water so much as the filter drops off and my Turbo ingests a Rock.

The chip has arrived! We'll begin tuning this evening :) I'll be using the LM-1. What should be my target AFR's be for idle and WOT and full boost? Do twin plugs have any bearing on what my AFR's should be? thanks!

at least this should be the easy part right?
low compression, less than 14.4 psi, twin plugged,

I don't like reading your thread anymore. It really makes me want to put together another one.
I'm envious, lol

idle/low load: 14.7
WOT: 12.2

I was hoping this would be the case. Maybe it's turned out to be difficult because I'm a nube...

Anyways, I've got a couple issues i've encountered tonight. The idle was originally running high - around 1200ish. I was able to get it down to 1000 by adjust the idle switch (still a little high). After driving it around for an hour or so, the idle suddenly dropped to around 500. I didn't yet try adjusting it from here. I also set the fuel quality switch all the way to the left (counterclockwise), which I believe is the 0 marker.

After calibrated the LM-1 and began with readings at idle (1200ish) around 20 AFR. I began adjusting the rrfpr with the vacuum line disconnected (felt like there was plenty of vacuum) and adjusted the on set screw clockwise, increasing the fuel pressure. This seemed to drop the AFRs to around 17. I increased the fuel pressure further but it seemed to have a counter effect, increasing the AFRs to 20. I eventually settled on the 17 AFR and took it out for a little drive. As soon as I gave it a little throttle it jumped to 14 AFR and to 10 AFR on moderate throttle.

I couldn't get past 3500-4000 RPM in any gear. It accelerated slowly to this point and then started running roughly and no more power. I'm going to verify that we're getting spark at all plugs next.

Any advice? This is first time tuning anything. I'd appreciate any help you guys can give. Thanks.

I would really start by getting idle mix at 14.7. leave the begi at a neutral setting at first. If you can't get that then there is something wrong. I wouldn't even drive it without getting idle mix right at 900 rpm.
your off idle/ full throttle switch must work. same with the barn door signal.


look for an air leak

use the small white restrictor in the signal line to the rr reg

be careful raising the rate without knowing what pressure you're getting at the top. It is possible to pop fuel lines with that reg. (im guessing here) you don't want to get too close to burst pressure.

idle pressure should be close to 40, little less than. I think there are 4 people on pelican that can verify that number.

Are you getting full throttle signal to the dme?

Is the barn door signal to the dme decent?

the chip is set up for twin plug right?

What about the splitter?

I would say some thing is up with the chip, afm, splitter, full throttle input from the afm and butterfly, or an air leak.


I guess I'd make sure all 12 were firing and the chip and splitter are all working well and then go from there

I am not familiar with you adjustable raising rate FPR. It sounds like you are trying to calibrate it to work w your chip.

Did Tod give you some specs to set it at?

If not I would assume you would start out at stock fuel pressure settings.

I would first make sure the vac you are pulling is at spec. You just built that motor and there are several things that could affect it.

I would hook the FPR up and test the fuel pressure at idle and blip the throttle to see that it is raising.

I do not know the factory tests for fuel pressure but I thought it was more like 32-36 lbs at idle w the everything hooked up and running.

The other approach is to like you are trying which would be to use the fuel pressure to set idle AFR. To do this everything has to be hooked up with proper vac.

As to the gain or how fast the fuel pressure raises I suspect the starting point is that after idle is set right you would disconnect the vac line to simulate loss of vac like under full throttle and the FPR would be set for the factory spec or a target that Tod set the chip to work at.

Again I assume there are two ways to adjust the FPR. One for base pressure and the other for gain or how fast the pressure raises. You may have to play these two adjustments off against each other to get yor idle pressure/AFR and no-vac pressure where they need to be.

Then you would do your traceability fine tuning where you would play w the gain rate until you hit your target AF's under boost.

For a NA motor the target AF is around 12/1. On a turbo and one that is not running an inter-cooler you may want to target something closer to 11/ under full boost for an added cooling effect. This will cost a little Hp but will be cooler and safer. In the 10's is rich.

http://i38.tinypic.com/25kmz4j.jpg 16
http://i33.tinypic.com/2nl6bye.jpg 17
http://i35.tinypic.com/ie49yo.jpg 18
http://i36.tinypic.com/j8gxon.jpg 19
http://i35.tinypic.com/sxn6ef.jpg 20

idle pressure spec is 33-39 idle with vac line off the begi (leaking) I wouldn't worry about this much if the two valves on the fmu are loose.
but something is screwing up your idle mix. start there.

mix spec is .6 to 1% CO = 14.22 - 14.1 AFR = .976 - .959 L if you have the lm1 set on lambda

my car idled at 13.5 cold and after a few minutes would go to 14.5 -14.7 without running an o2 sensor.

edit, like i said in that note, removing the vac line should make your gauge read the static pressure. once you connect it back to the fmu the gauge drops to zero.

Great info jerry ready to do another one yet? are you bracing for the storm?? Hope all is well

hey Ben
ya, it's raining just a wee bit

Jerry, you were right on your first guess. There was an air leak between the throttle body rubber elbow and the venturi tube (the line running up to the brake booster). We got that snugged down and down and we were able to get the AFR's closer to 15 at idle, and it cured the acceleration problem! We took it for a short drive and hit boost a few times before the rubber elbow between the throttle body and the AFM blew off (Spence, you were right man). I tried using a better T-bolt clamp and that allowed us to take it to 6000 RPM. AWESOME speed, followed by the elbow blowing off again and the engine cutting out. I've tried an elaborate combination of zip ties as a temporary solution but that's not working out so well :-( It would be easy enough to use a silicone elbow, but I still need to plumb lines for the Venturi tube and for idle. What have you guys done to get around this?

The other issue pertains to the boost gauge. I'm not getting any positive pressure reading under boost (when the rubber elbow decides to stay on), but I am getting a negative pressure reading under vacuum. I'm using the NHS boost gauge (VDO Clock replacement). I couldn't find any leaks in the engine compartment or where the gauge connects to the brake booster. Any suggestions on where to look next? How would I check for a failing brake booster?

The Innovate LM-1 stopped working at the end of yesterday :( I'll call Innovate and see what they can do for me.

Thanks for all of your help guys. Couldn't have done any of this without you guys.

there's a check valve in the booster line I believe, in the engine bay.

My rubber boot only came off on occasion. Only in very cold weather, and on very hard second to third gear shifts.

My boot was new though, and I cleaned the boot, throttle, and afm mating surfaces very well.

Glad it was an easy fix, do you want to post what happened to the lm1?

edit, don't forget the innovate forums http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

boost guage setup must be the wrong order of hooking the parts up as I did the same thing and did the same as yours the 1st time

We solved the problem of the throttle body elbow blowing off by using rivets to fasten the elbow to the collar of the AFM. Perhaps taboo, but very effective.

I drove the car around for a good bit and really didn't feel much of an increase in power from when the car was normally aspirated. I still wasn't getting a reading on the boost gauge, yet I was definitely getting compressed air into the charge pipe because the blow off valve was sounding loud and clear on each shift. It seemed there had to be some fall out between the charge pipe and the manifold, but there were no leaks to be found.

I hooked up the boost gauge to a vacuum line T'd off of the blow off valve and still no boost. Doug mentioned to try disconnecting the air filter plumbing, and just see what happens. Low and behold, we got a boost reading! The air filter we disconnected resided in the engine compartment. The turbo has a 3" compressor inlet, but I couldn't maintain 3" plumbing to the air filter, so I decreased it to 2.5" plumbing for part of the stretch. Unfortunately it also took 6 90 degree bends to get the filter in there. Do you guys think I was starving the the turbo?

Took it out for a couple runs and hit .7 Bar on the dot. I tried reconnecting the boost gauge to the line proceeding from the brake booster, but we weren't getting a reading ( though this was with the alternative air filter setup which sits in the driver's side rear wheel well). I'll try connecting the boost gauge to the other vacuum connection running off of the BOV to determine whether this alternative air filter setup is too restrictive also or if I've connected the boost gauge incorrectly.

It definitely felt faster when taking it out last night, but I might say I was expecting more. I still haven't gotten the fuel dialed in precisely yet, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. It appeared that I wasn't hitting full boost until 4000 RPM, but I need to do some more runs. I'm a bit hesitant to run it hard until I break it in some more and get the LM-1 working again. I'd also like to know what the max fuel pressure I'm hitting is. I'm guessing the lag has part to do with the stock heat exchanger. Do you think the 2" compressor outlet has anything to do with the lag?

More to come! Thanks for all your help guys.

yeah something is still wrong as you should have trouble getting the tires to hook up if you romp on it.. I am still guessing the boost gauge is hooked up incorrect can you take a quick picture and I can tell you for sure if its right or wrong.

something is wrong, you sure the system is air tight? Mine started leaking just slightly from the elbow and power was right down almost to NA, once I replaced the elbow it was fishtail time. You can get a fitting that goes over your turbo inlet and allows you to pressurize the system. Make sure the whole thing is air tight, the carrera intake manifold can leak too if not correctly torqued.

intake leak testers:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/index.php?cPath=8&osCsid=d5a89d5a8d630d42b93a05346 0a72892

If I recall correctly I talked to Tod a couple of years ago when he was concentrating on his low pressure blow though system. He was having challenges with it blowing up the elbow.

Might look for cracks there.

Sometimes if one dose not prelube the turbo bearing it can fail but that is usually on a bushing style bearing. Probably a low probability in your case.

Just a couple of shots in the dark.

I'll take a picture tonight.

I did get a reading of .7 Bar on the turbo gauge (when I T'd a vacuum line off of the BOV). This is exactly what I was hoping to get, but it didn't feel a lot faster than a stock Carrera. The fact that I'm getting a reading of .7 BAR means that the turbo plumbing is air tight, correct?

Thanks for the tip, but I believe the turbo was delivered pre-lubed as there were traces of oil when I first got it.

I'm guessing there is some other issue at play here. Before I resolved the issue with the leak in the turbo plumbing and the elbow blowing off, the engine couldn't rev above 4000 RPM - both with the stock chip and the Protomotive. Even with the lowered compression (from 9.5:1 to 8.0:1), this should not be the case. For the problem to be with the pistons & cylinders wouldn't the compression have to be grossly low?

I'm wondering if any of the following things could cause this:

1. Cams not timed correctly
2. Distributor not installed corerctly (timing the distributor?).
3. Andial Splitter not hooked up correctly. I confirmed with Todd that he programmed the chip for twin plugs and that it should work just fine with the Andial Splitter.
4. Reference/RPM sensors not installed with correct gap.

I don't think there's anything that can be done about the ignition timing with the stock Motronic setup - as that's all up to the Protomotive chip now. I guess the next steps I'll take is to verify that I'm getting spark at all 12 plugs. This should verify that there's not a problem with the splitter, right? Next, we could take the distributor out and verify that it's installed (timed) correctly. Could the reference/RPM sensors not installed with the correct gaps cause a significant drop in power?

Please let me know what other hunches you guys have as to what the problem could be. Thanks guys.

***Edit***
I don't know if it helps you guys to diagnose the issue at all, but car is backfiring, sputtering, and farting a lot - especially on engine deceleration.

4. Reference/RPM sensors not installed with correct gap.

I don't think your car would start if this was an issue. cht going bad maybe, but your car would stall when warm, or not start at all.

backfiring, sputtering, and farting
function of fuel, exhaust, and where your air filter is, and what type.

hey, is there a cat on your car? I don't remember.

and reply to pm here.

I believe the gauge works that way because we have a gauge on the return side of the fuel system. The stock reg keeps the rail pressure at a specified level. The return side is not pressurized as it returns to the tank. (well, not above ambient I assume)
If you were to monitor pressure at the rail it would read true pressure all the time.
An electric sender on the return side, even without a turbo reads zero.

I had a rail test cap that I tapped for a 1/8 inch NPT oil filled gauge. I've posted a picture of it before. I used this before the turbo install when I was checking injectors and stuff.

My fuel gauge that was in the cabin (electric) only worked on boost and basically showed rising pressure. It came off zero and swept up to max pressure at max boost.

I put a new pump and new injectors in, so I wasn't really concerned about idle pressure for the most part.

I would say that if you did a volume over time check you can assume idle pressure is good in conjunction with the lm-1.

Don't discount that a small leak, maybe even half of your top pressure, boost, could easily occur on the throttle boot. Those crack pretty easy. My old one had a crack in it and did close to what yours is doing.

If you have a boost gauge and the lm-1 you can assume the fuel pressure is going up based on the lm-1 readings.

If boost goes up and afr's go down you can only assume fuel pressure is raising.
But you must have a functioning boost gauge. Don't take it from the BOV. Although this verifies that your turbo is spinning up, that's about it.

Of the three things, boost gauge, lm-1, and fuel gauge, you really have to be monitoring, or logging, two of them while driving.

I got my boost/vac signal from under the butterfly on the throttle body. I don't really like getting it from the front of the car. But that's just me.
Monitoring it on the engine leaves out any other leaks that may or may not be there in those hoses behind number three plenum and running up to the booster.
plus, I liked seeing vacuum at idle.

So, I would say don't go get an electric fuel sender, unless you want to run wires. If you do you might as well run some boost gauge tubing along with it. And If you do, and want to make it really nice, plumb the sender to the rail with a Tee off the test port.

I would go with what you got and see where the air is going, it's going somewhere for sure.

Be careful driving around without being able to monitor at least two of the three things. AFR, boost, fuel pressure.

This could be a simple problem, I bet it is.
Take some pictures.
pipe to AFM
AFM to throttle boot
throttle boot to throttle
what does the pipeline, OEM term, connection look like at the back of the throttle boot? That's that copper tube thing

And the ICV hose, hows that connection?
I'm starting to ramble, let me get a beer

Could put at TDC mark on your pulley and put a timing light on it. Then you can see where you timing is and how it advances. Also could put it on number one on each bank of the distributor to be sure both sides are firing.

Is the distributor indexed correctly?

With 12 plug wires are you sure they are all attached correctly?

Pre lubing the turbo is hooking it up and leaving the oil return disconnected and turning the motor over w/o fuel or spark till oil starts running out of the bottom of the turbo. This gets the air out of the supply so there is not a dry start.

Nope. Exempt from emissions inspection so long as your drive it less than 5,000 miles per year in PA.

Ahhh this makes perfect sense.

Do you think I could still have a leak even if I'm getting a .7 BAR reading from inside the intake manifold? Am I wrong in thinking that the problem DOES NOT lie with the turbo and its plumbing since I'm achieving my target boost within the intake manifold? If I were to disconnect part of the turbo plumbing and run normally aspirated, put the stock chip back in, and take off the BEGI, I should achieve a smooth acceleration through the RPM range, correct? I believe under these conditions that I would still experience the engine cutting out at 4,000 RPM, but I can try it again to verify.

My LM-1 crapped out, and I took Jerry's advice to look into on the Innovate forums. I'll post any updates when I find out what's up.

I'll take some pics tonight. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the ICV hose?

I'll start with the plug wires to make sure they're in there correctly and move from there.

Ahhh - I understand now. Am I ok in this regard since I'm achieving .7 bar in the intake manifold?

YOU GUYS ROCK!

I didn't know you got .7 inside the intake. you did? I thought .7 at the bov?

idle control valve
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1221491909.jpg

if you put the stock chip in you'd run in six plug mode. The turbo chip is not that much different from the stock chip. Yours is different for the twelve plugs.

Ohh, I see the confusion now. I T'd off of the vacuum line running to the BOV from the back of the throttle body (below the throttle plate). So, yes, I'm certain the intake manifold is achieving .7 BAR boost.

Yes, the ICV hose is secure then.

well hell, I don't know what to say.

Yikes.

do you think there is a problem with the rebuild, or does it run fine without any forced air?

There was NO power after 3500 RPM when I ran it normally aspirated. It's like the engine just gave up. That was when I had the venturi tube disconnected from the throttle body elbow, but I can't imagine a leak like that would prevent the engine from revving beyond 3500.

I'm going take the BEGI rrfpr off, put the stock chip back in, and run it normally aspirated. If there's still a problem, I'll yank the twin plug distributor and andial splitter and go back to single plug.

Does that sound reasonable?

Haven't read the entire thread fully but here's my 2 cents...
a) Why not use the T-connection to the BOV for your boost gauge permanently? That will also tell you exactly what your engine sees in real time (& remove more unknowns from the equation)?

b) In post #262, it sounds like you are getting boost & things are running correctly?

c) The stock exchanger will certainly add to the lag

you dont have to take the begi off, gas runs through it normal without a signal to it. relax the center screw and the side screw and it will be fine

Have you talked to Todd about having a rrfpr on your car? I would think that this a variable that could throw your fuel mapping off. If your rrfpr has a boost sensor port, if could be disconnected, thereby making it a fixed fuel pressure regulator.

Ben has the same boost gauge running off of the brake booster. He's going to help me verify that I have it hooked up correctly. If I do have it hooked up correctly, and it's still not working then I'll run it off of the T-connection with the BOV.

Correct. I'm now taking the engine rebuild into question[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have. He runs a rrfpr on cars similar to mine running low boost. Others here, including Jerry, have successfully used the BEGI rrfpr in their turbo conversions. The only reason I didn't use Protomotive's rrfpr is that it costs $500 more than the BEGI. Todd has emailed me this in regards to the rrfpr:

Ours is dual rate, running 2.8 bar 1/1 under NA conditions, and 3.8/1 ratio with a 2.8bar base above atmospheric pressure. If you can come close to these conditions, it'll work fine. Check fuel pressure. It should be 2.8 bar with no vacuum line connected, about 2.5 bar connected and idling, and adds 3.8 bar for every 1 bar of pressure on the vacuum line. So, at 1 bar of boost, it should be 6.6 bar fuel pressure. Plus or minus a little bit.

If engine runs/idles nicely but doesn't make power, check and doublecheck ignition timing. It may be retarded. Telltale is very hot headers. Sure you don't have dizzy a tooth off?