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3.5 P/C Question

I've got an 82 911 Turbo that I've got some questions about.

The car has been upgraded with the 3.5 Mahle Pistons and Cylinders and uses Elgin CIS-S camshafts and a K27.

A couple years ago my wife took the car to go grocery shopping and put the bags in the trunk, then took off without closing the trunk properly . Needless to say, this resulted in damage to the trunk lid, hinges and parts of the body between the trunk lid and windshield. Since the car had been running rather hot and had some oil leaks, I decided to redo the motor while the body work was being done.

I took the heads, cam towers, Ps and Cs to a local Porsche shop for reconditioning, cleaning, and measuring the P/Cs for roundness. The sat for about 8 months with nothing being done so I went to pick them up to do the cleaning myself and take the rest to another shop. Bottom line is that during the 8 months, they lost the P/Cs.

I am now wondering what is the best way to go about replacing them? The Mahle replacements run about $7K, which is a little steep for me right now. I know Powerhaus makes this size P/C, but don't know their prices (am still waiting for their catalog in the mail), and LN makes Nickies and Pistons sets for this application for around $3.5K using J&Es. Anyone have any experience with either of these? Any advice or experiences would be appreciated.

Also, anyone familiar with the Elgin "CIS-S" cams? Is this the same profile used in the CIS 911s (74-77) or an SC cam?

Thanks,

Greg
Old 11-20-2008, 04:13 PM
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Greg,
I hope the shop made good on the lost Ps & Cs?

Was the shop in Northern VA?

Mark
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:15 PM
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Well, it's kinda complicated since the owner was/is a friend of mine and says he never really remembered me dropping off the pistons and cyls. He'll help me make it right but I don't want to stick him with a $7K bill since I really kind of left the stuff there for 8 months without really checking on them, there was a move of his shop involved and he may have had them stolen...but I think he should have still been responsible to have kept track of the stuff.

No, his shop is in Rockville. I'm going up there tomorrow eve to go thru the whole shop and look for them again before I drop the cash for a new set.
Old 11-20-2008, 06:27 PM
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Hmm, I have just under $4000,00 in my P&C's... JB Racing iron lined cyls, (Aluminum fully finned), and JE pistons... 8/1 CR.. I really think you should look into them, as you have a much better ring selection with the iron lined cyl's...

LN's Nickies and JE Pistons are also a good choice....
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:03 PM
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Just checked out JBs website, I like the idea of the increased heat dissipation you get with the iron lined cylinders, they seem to be about the same price-wise as the LN Nickie setup, did the pistons come with the coated skirts?
Old 11-20-2008, 08:38 PM
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I paid $3900 for 7:1, 3.5 mahle p&c's less than 2 yrs ago, have they really gone up that much?
Old 11-20-2008, 08:54 PM
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Just checked out JBs website, I like the idea of the increased heat dissipation you get with the iron lined cylinders, they seem to be about the same price-wise as the LN Nickie setup, did the pistons come with the coated skirts?
I chose not to have the coating... but you can get it... it was not that much if I recall.... call them, and ask for Mike Bruns....
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:33 PM
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Regardless if he is your friend I think he is responsible for whatever parts from a customers car that is lost. Yes you did leave them there for 8 months but wasn't he supposed to be working on them? If he didn't want to be stuck with a 7k bill then he shouldn't have lost the parts.

I know it's easy for me to say cause I'm not friends with him, but that's my view on it anyways. Also I don't think Mahle's cost anywhere close to 7k.
Old 11-21-2008, 06:17 AM
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HotRod..

I have the Powerhaus 3.5 P/Cs in my car. I think they are just basically the Mahle set.. what Powerhaus did was offer choice of C/R I believe.

Finding out/specing a cam is always interesting.. Elgin is still around so they may be able to give details on the CIS-S cam.

Autothority used to offer what they called a "cheater grind" which was a modified SC profile that worked real well with CIS.. and was used with turbo cars. There are only so many profiles that will work with CIS, many are probably close to.. or the same grind, with the only the name differing from supplier to supplier.

While on that topic: Anybody know anything about Powerhaus T-3 cams?


I like the concept of sleeving the cylinders.. seen that a lot on Italian cars (aluminum blocks), motorcycles, and some airplane engines.. seems cost effective and as Turbobrat mentioned, much better ring selection.

What color is your car.. I'm in the area trying tofigure if I've seen it/you before. As far as the shop in Rockville, would that be on Stone street or Muncaster Mill?
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:46 AM
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Stonestreet. The car is black w/silver BBs wheels, but hasn't been on the road for the last 5 years. Yeah, I'm gonna call Elgin on the cam. My buddy who builds my 914 race motors says the 964 cam is nice in street driven turbos, I was thinking about looking into that.

osiris, I agree but what can you do except get nasty with a friend, he'll help out on making it right...the last I checked the MAHLE 3.5s was about 4 or 5 months ago and the price I found was approx $6,900, and I think that was here at PP, maybe Autothority. That's why I'm glad I asked you guys, there seem to be several better options.
Old 11-21-2008, 07:12 AM
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EBS has the mahle 7:1's listed for $5,075.00. If he's your friend he should replace what he lost at his expense, with no grief, a test of friendship.
Old 11-21-2008, 07:21 AM
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Not sure if he can afford to. I'll probably end up going with the JB option or the Nickies, which isn't quite as much, and get some free work on my Carrera.
Old 11-21-2008, 07:34 AM
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I had a set of Elgin CIS-S cams in my hands I could have purchased around a year ago.
I called Elgin to find out more abaout them and they said they are a regrind of the 930 cams with just a little more lift and duration. A little metal ground off the base circle.
They said they would make a just little more power than stock ones without changing the stock power band.

They won't wake up the motor as much as SC cams.
and 964 cams will give more horsepower than SC cams.
Old 11-21-2008, 11:13 AM
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Stonestreet. The car is black w/silver BBs wheels, but hasn't been on the road for the last 5 years.
Yep, that's who I thought.. good guy, I know him from way back in the day when O'l Clark was still around! Thought maybe I had seen that car around..

As JF stated, the 964 would be an excellent cam for your 930 "since you're in there".

Best of luck..

Paul
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:42 PM
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Paul, will the 964 cams work ok with the stock CIS? I noted above that you said that only some profiles work well with CIS.
Old 11-21-2008, 07:13 PM
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Paul, will the 964 cams work ok with the stock CIS? I noted above that you said that only some profiles work well with CIS.
Yes, they will work nicely. I'ts kinda the next step up from the SC, good low end, strong mid to top end. Although I think the SC cam is a little stronger on the low end.
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Old 11-22-2008, 06:43 AM
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Ok, here's the plan, gonna go with the JB P/Cs at the 8:1 CR and the 954 cams. Couple questions:

Can Elgin cut the 964 profile on my CIS-S cams?

Has anyone ever used Web-Cam 964 cams or should I stick with Elgin? I've had good luck with Web-Cams cams on my 914 race motors, was wondering if anyone had any experience with their 911 cams.

Also, this is a street car, can I go with the 8:1 CR and still use pump gas (93 octane)?
Old 11-23-2008, 12:27 PM
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Also, this is a street car, can I go with the 8:1 CR and still use pump gas (93 octane)?
greg, I dont think I would go with 8:1 C/R with CIS... Others might disagree. The highest I would go with CIS is 7.5:1 There is just too thin of a line with your AFR's when retaining CIS to push the C/R level much past 7.5:1

With these air cooled motors, we cant cool the heads and cylinders as well as the water cooled bretheren. I am running 8:1 C/R and thats with full EFI, and will be only running .8 bar most of the time and 1.0 bar at the MAX...ever!!! I have too much money wrapped up into my motor to chance getting a few extra HP at the expense of engine life.

Run the 8:1 C/R pistons if you want with CIS, but I would be very weary of detonation and lean conditions.....

BTW, very good choice on JB Racing... a bunch of great, honest guys to work with!!
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 11-23-2008, 12:45 PM
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turbobrat, Thanks for the input, detonation was a big concern. I think 7.5 is the way to go...also, I notice that you use a 3.2 extrudhoned intake manifold, I intend on using the 930 manifold but I've seen recommendations to increase the size larger than the 33mm that it currently is, which I assume is stock...what's the recommended size? 36mm? The heads are at the machine shop so they're not here to measure, what size is the intake port? I imagine I'll have to have those open'd up too.
Old 11-23-2008, 01:45 PM
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Greg, I really dont know how much the stock 3.3L intake can be opened up. I am sure someone will post up that has done the mod to the stock intake. The Extrude hone process does not take very much material out of the intake at all. It only make it flow more equal, and takes out casting imperfections. I believe I have heard of someone opeing up the intake on the heads abit, then, by using custom aluminum spacers, boring them out, and then opening up the intake a bit.

I am familiar with the 3.2L intake and my setup, but I am sure someone will post up soon that has done this to their motor...
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Brad...930 gt-1 racecar, increased displacement to 3.6L, JB racing Cylinders, JE 8 to1 pistons, stroked crank, Carrillo rods, extrudehoned 3.2L intake, full bay Bell I/C, GT-2 EVO cams, Rarly8 headers, GTX-35RS turbo, twin plug, P&P heads, Link G4 EFi system, G-50/50 with LTD slip and oil squirters/oil cooler, zork tube, full race coilover system, with carbon fiber body, full cage, E-85 sippin drunk
Old 11-23-2008, 04:11 PM
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