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Back on the block.........935 TT & EFI project.......Which ECU....?

Hi everybody,

Due to some personnal and professional obligations, I didn't work further more on my engine project......but now, time is gone to wake up and run......


So, I need a calculator for managing my "all twin" engine 3.5L. (turbo, ignition and injection..)

The main problem for me is to find a calculator able to manage the 2 injectors with differents stages: normal cruise, boost, full power.

Which calculators are you using....?....since those last 2 years, are there new calculators....?.....and is there one able to provide me the right specifications...?

Thanks for your answers.....
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Last edited by 935TURBO; 07-24-2010 at 10:30 PM..
Old 07-18-2010, 03:16 PM
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Serge!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Was wondering about you the other day......

You really don't need 2 injectors per cylinder unless your goals are over 1200HP. Just about all the main stream programmable ECU's are able to support twin injectors but if you run single 96lbs injectors in sequential mode (which are the biggest I would run on gas) can support 1200HP. If you want and you have E85 easily available, you could run 160lbs injectors to run that instead of gas. There are plenty support for all the ECU's you just need to know where to go. Do your research so the self claimed tuners can't feed you a line of s*^((& !!!!
Are you sure you want to run 100mm cylinders??
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Old 07-18-2010, 04:38 PM
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Hi Jerry, nice to hear you....


Of course not, I'm not looking for 1.2 kHP or more.....

My goal is to have an engine with enough power, between 500 to 600 HP and a high torque since about 3000 to 7000 revs......you will think......as everybody want.....!

I want to be able to use the car both....street and circuit (Magny-Cours 19/20 September 2010, but the engine won't be ready for this year....)

So, at present, I got this 3.2 intake, machined and ready for 2 injectors: in my mind, I was thinking that it was better to have 2 injectors ( a small one and a medium one ), positioned one close to the head intake and the second one a little bit farer....

Here is a picture of my 3.2 intake...





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Last edited by 935TURBO; 07-19-2010 at 12:58 AM..
Old 07-19-2010, 12:28 AM
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I love your idea about the staggered injectors. Todays ECU's can make huge injectors idle like a dream but having the small injectors for idle and cruise would be nice.
Old 07-19-2010, 11:48 AM
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Serge you can do that easily with 72lbs injectors. I use to run stagged 55lbs injectors before bank to bank + sequential was available, Batch fire with 55lbs was the best you could get away with years ago. Even 83lbs injectors would be good to 900-1000HP. As long as you fire bank to bank and sequential, I would really stick to single 72's for your build and weld up the upper injector ports. DFI, FAST, Big Stuff, DTA, Haltech ,Motec all have stagged capability. If you still want you could run (2) 36lbs per cylinder.
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:35 PM
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Jerry, I think that 2 injectors,a small one and a bigger one, managed with levels depending on the power demand, the efficiency will be improved....isn't it...?
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Old 07-20-2010, 09:25 AM
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Efficiency as far as what??? You can have your car idle perfectly with 72lbs injectors and have exact fuel control throughout the entire range. By adding an extra injector especially a small primary and a large secondary. You will end up having a drastic cut in your fuel map when you bring the second injector in. It actually adds more tuning into the equation with the same results as single. Back when ECU's couldn't control large injectors we had to run stagged injectors.

For example I am now running 96lbs injectors on my setup. I have a smooth idle @ 850 RPM's but can only get the AFR's down to 13.5 at idle. But these are big injectors. I could run 83 lbs injectors and gain more injector control below 1500 RPM. To be honest I usually keep the boost down at 1-1.1BAR as more than that lack of traction makes the car a handfull.

72lbs injectors would allow efficient control from idle to 650HP without worry about stagging your fuel map.

If you want to stick with stagged then go 24lbs primaries and 55lbs secondaries. With a new ECU, it won't gain you efficiency just more work.
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:23 PM
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Just for reference based off (6) single injectors fired in sequential mode running gasoline:
350HP 42lbs injectors excellent idle quality up to max power
450HP 55lbs injectors excellent idle quality up to max power
550HP 65lbs injectors excellent idle quality up to max power
650HP 72lbs injectors excellent idle quality up to max power
750HP 83lbs injectors good idle quality up to max power
850HP 96lbs injectors decent idle up to max power
950HP 110lbs injectors at this point stagged injectors are required to achieve good idle
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:34 PM
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Thanks Jerry for all those infos and those injectors specs....I think you convainced me.....may be I can use the second hole for a water-injection....

Sure, managing one injector will be much more easier than 2, specially because the ECUs are mainly able to managed only one per cylinder...or 2, but in parrallele...?

Normally for usual cruise, it's better having the gas flow a little bit far from the intake to improve the fuel/air mixture and for high instant power, it's better to have the flow the closer to the intake to have more fuel in the mixture....so...that's one of the reason I did that choice...
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:49 AM
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I am not a fan of WMI....... But if you want to run it, that's your call. With a good flowing turbo/s and an efficient IC, I don't feel it is needed.

Remember pretty much all the main stream ECU's can easily manage multiple injectors. It is just not necessary to run stagged at the power level you are asking for.

If you ran 2 injectors per cylinder, you would have 2 separate fuel rails per bank in parallel to each other per bank. running 4 fuel rails, all the injector stay in series but the rails would be in parallel from 1 bank to the other.

But running singles the rails will be parallel to each other, with all the injectors in series. And finally terminating to the FPR and from there the return to the tank.

It is actually better to run a higher static fuel pressure for improved atomization, than run the injector higher in the runner. I would stick to the stock injector location so it gets the fuel in the chamber faster. By running a higher static fuel pressure, the spray pattern of the injector would be much more efficient.

In the old days running injectors higher up in the runner help atomization by having the fuel bounce off the runner walls and misting the fuel for atomization. Not the case anymore with today's injectors.
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Old 07-21-2010, 06:29 AM
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The first thing I noticed about that modified Carrera manifolds is the sloppy amatuer aluminum tig welding.
Hope you didn't pay anyone to do that because thats the ugliest tungston inert gas welding I've ever seen.

Second is how the second injector bung on the far left is positioned in the runner. The fuel spray from the injector pintle is conical.
Looking at how that injector bung is positioned half the fuel spray cone is aimed directly at the side of the runner because it curves sideways just below the second injector.

That's NFG because around half the fuel spray from the injector will hit the inner wall of the runner. That part of the fuel spray will hit the runner wall and wet out and run down the wall into the intake port and combustion chamber as liqued fuel instead of remaining atomized fuel in the airstream.

Some 935's with high butterfly injection aimed the mechanical injector upwards against the airflow to keep that from happening and atomize the fuel better.
Old 07-21-2010, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFairman View Post
The first thing I noticed about that modified Carrera manifolds is the sloppy amatuer aluminum tig welding.
Hope you didn't pay anyone to do that because thats the ugliest tungston inert gas welding I've ever seen.
I'm betting that's a MIG weld, not TIG, and he probably had some gaps to fill around the bung.
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Old 07-21-2010, 12:45 PM
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MIG welding is wire feed.. never heard of that on aluminum but may be..

MIG wire feed with argon gas welding is common and quick way to weld on steel and takes alot less skill than TIG welding.
Old 07-21-2010, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
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MIG welding is wire feed.. never heard of that on aluminum but may be..

MIG wire feed with argon gas welding is common and quick way to weld on steel and takes alot less skill than TIG welding.
Several cheap aluminum 'spool guns' on the market for use on aluminum, and hooked up to a MIG welder. They can lay down a lot of metal fast, and if you're not careful, can look like the above welds.

Miller - MIG Aluminum DIY: Selecting the Right Welder, Spool Gun and Filler Wire for Success at Home
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Old 07-21-2010, 01:04 PM
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yes, they do have MIG welder wire feed guns for aluminum. It could be TIG but does appear to be MIG
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cool, I don't think they had that when I was doing that kind of stuff in '82.

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Old 07-21-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
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The first thing I noticed about that modified Carrera manifolds is the sloppy amatuer aluminum tig welding.
Hope you didn't pay anyone to do that because thats the ugliest tungston inert gas welding I've ever seen.



I bought this piece in....US.....a few years ago....may be to a Pelicanparts member....don't know......and didn't saw precisely the welds.....

But mainly the injectors basements are not "pretty'.......the main one concerning the manifold is not so bad as you can see on the following pictures....









A view of the inside.....











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Old 07-21-2010, 03:00 PM
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:06 AM
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I heard you guys..............understanding that I will save time and be safe against woories......I definitly think that I'll use single injectors....but don't know what to do for the second holes............WM...?...
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Old 07-24-2010, 05:23 AM
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....but don't know what to do for the second holes............WM...?...
Install a complete secondary fuel system with a small fuel cell and adequate pumps to feed the second injectors. Run low octane fuel to the primary injectors and high octane race fuel to the secondary injectors.

Just kidding BTW
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