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Architecture & Porsche's
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
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3.3 965 to 3.6 965: need to modify my CIS: thoughts?

I know Brian offers the WUR rebuilds with the dials for cold, hot, & WOT which my car really needs. Because I bought a t3.6 engine longblock, I'd like to massage my CIS "system" to allow more fuel, being aware that the metering box might need mods too. Does anyone have a reference/source for this knowledge??

Thanks!

Mark
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:01 AM
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Larry Fletcher is the CIS fuel head expert. He can modify and rebuild the fuel head to flow anywhere up to 25% more fuel while keeping it streetable and he knows way more about it than anyone else in the USA. He's also good friends with top people at Bosch in Germany
He is pleasant to talk to and his company is CISFLOWTECH
His contact info is on his website.

Brian Leask is a mechanical engineer by trade and 930 owner. He is the best person to modify your control pressure regulator which is commonly called a WUR for warm up regulator on the internet forums.
He is also very personable, enthusiastic, and fun to talk to.
His website is Adjustable 930 WUR Website

These are the very best guys to go to for CIS fuel head and WUR modifications and rebuilds. They are experienced and helpful, they know each other and they really know what they are doing.
Old 07-22-2010, 09:19 AM
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Ah! that's the info I was looking for: thank you!!

Mark
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:01 AM
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Hey Mark,

The 3.6 fuel system (over the 3.3) has a different WUR. The difference is the on boost pressure drop (1.3 bar to 1.6 bar if memory serves). If you're hands on you can easily do this your self by opening up the WUR and taping down the brass pem. You'll also need a 3.6 ez69 unit as these are different for the 3.3l motors. PM me if you need one as I have a spare.

Something that gets left out frequently on the CIS mod topics is if you want to use the closed loop system while off boost. You typically loose this with the changes discussed. The 965 systems can flow plenty of fuel without opening it up. It just takes a bit of tweaking here and there.
Old 07-30-2010, 05:13 AM
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I didn't purchase the 3.6t fuel system, just the longblock to be used with my 3.3t fuel system & tweeks as needed. Thanks for reminding me that the WUR was different: i had forgotten, but I'll surely mention it during the rebuilding and I do want to retain the closed loop system off-boost as it's my wife's daily driver.

Mark
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Old 07-30-2010, 05:17 AM
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Mark,

The info Jim gave you above is on target for modifying your fueling system.

The 3.6 CIS is a different set up. Injectors, metering cone, WUR... It would be tough to copy it.

If I would add anything, it might be to considering upgrading the fuel pump (s). There is some indication that may be difficult to maintain 'system pressure' at high rpm. This can be seen if shimming the Fuel Distributor dose not add fuel up top.

You know the basics that add fuel. lower Control pressure (WUR), higher System Pressure (shimming regulator), increased Differential Pressure (rebuild FD to different specs w increased diaphragm-orifice spring tension ).

The challenge then becomes tuning around these changes.

Lower CP only effects on boost AFR (all or nothing) and can be delayed with an RPM switch and solenoid.

Increased SP and DP increases fuel progressively with increases in air flow. Thus, cruse AFR might be richer.

The adjustable WUR can get one close but there will be compromises. Electronic add ons like the digital WUR or a and on programmable Frequency Valve plumbed around the WUR can allow one to pretty much nail the AFR's at all points.

An alternative might be to build for low end instead of peak HP and live with in your current fueling. You know the 3.6T has more compression so you might pull boost back about 2psi compared to what the 3.3 ceiling might have been to maintain the same effective on boost compression ratio.

Sounds like a great project.

I still think you nailed it with your SBB/60-1 turbo. Have not heard of a better set up sense.

The best.
Old 07-30-2010, 06:44 AM
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I have a Bosch 044 pump going in at the engine, & will clean out my fuel tank/pre-filter as well for the front pump.

Since it's a daily driver I don't mind compromises I'll tune for good cruising AF's since this is where my wife is most, & where the TQ & HP lie is where they'll lie. I'm not going for max hp/tq, just a bit more as the modifications will allow.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:49 AM
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With adjustable WUR those dont rule each other out. You can dial both separately but the rich dip you will have to address with a RPM switch and solenoid or just do what thierry wrote earlier in an other thread with a injector controller (split second AIC). This is the route I chose too.

Last edited by smurfbus; 07-30-2010 at 10:54 AM..
Old 07-30-2010, 10:48 AM
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Mark,

Just a guess but you should make the same power as your 3.3 dose at 17 psi on your 3.6 at about .9 to 1 bar. Plus, the larger displacement and higher compression should make for a nice preboost improvement in the 10% or more TQ bump range. Also, boost onset should be several hundered rpm sooner.

On my 91T I could get about 1 point richer AFR w lowered Control Pressure alone (custom RPM by Load programable fueler).

The 044 should help. Make sure it is not a counterfeit. I hear they have shown up on eBay.

As noted, you can shim the fuel pressure reg on the Fuel Dist for more fuel. This is actually the easyest way in some cases.

Modifying your aloy Lambda FD can get up to 10-12% more fuel.

The C2 Turbo WUR's have added compensation built in, do not let anyone talk you out of it if you go for a modified WUR. Make sure Brian can mod the C2 WUR's.

I know you have done well with the stock cams and ports. Are you going to make any changes there?
Old 07-30-2010, 01:55 PM
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It's my understanding that the stock 3.6t cams are equiv. to SC-grind cams: unsure of the ports. I'm contemplating having the heads sent out for porting: I know MODE had them rebuilt just a few years ago, so I might pass on all of that: still contemplating. I idea was not really for that much more power, only for a leak-free engine.

The fact that it's a 3.6 965 in lieu of a 3. 965 is merely luck. Yes, Titan Motorsports sells 044 pumps for less than $190.

I'm also selling the entire B&B system & having Boostlogic construct me an equal-length header system with an even higher-flowing exhaust post-turbo, and a larger turbine housing. Fun fun!
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Old 07-30-2010, 02:13 PM
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I believe cams did not change with the 3.6 CIS Turbo.

However, SC's cams were in the hand full of special build 'S' optioned 3.6 cars.

I also believe the stock ports were also the same 32mm intake on the 3.6T. The exhaust ports however were larger (34v38mm)

No reason to cam or port it unless you want to make more HP mid to up top. I think Porsche may have stayed with the small ports to help overcome the poor fuel atomization particular to CIS at low duty by keeping port velocity as high as possible. Just a guess.

CIS SC's were the same. Once Porsche went to EFI they opened up the intake ports a bunch. For example, the 3.6T was 32mm and the 3.6TT was 43mm. The 83SC 3.0 was 34mm and the 3.2 Carrera was 40mm. Thus, there is something about CIS going to small ports.

In spite of that I am interested in the idea of stock cams with larger intake ports. The stock CIS turbos are very 'port limited and should respond better to reducing the port restriction more quickly than increasing duration. I think by about 45% of valve lift the intake valve is at 100% of the stock port volume.

Reducing the port restriction should increase breathing more effectively and keep the TQ aspects of the stock RV style cam. SC cams lower the effective compression ratio about a half a point over stock 930 cams. Can not prove this is true but it seems to make sense after you compare the volume of the curtain area under the intake valve seat to the cross section of the ports.
Old 07-30-2010, 03:14 PM
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The engine doesn't care if the CIS is 930 or C2T3.6. The CIS system used just needs to be adjusted or modified to support the power level of the engine.
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Old 07-30-2010, 06:39 PM
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Jeff,
You mentioned that the 3.6L EZ69 units are different than the 3.3L EZ69 units. How so and is it a performance mod to put the 3.6L unit on a 3.3L car?

If the answer is yes, then I want one!

Mark
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:42 PM
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I had not heard there was a difference in the timing values between the 3.3 & 3.6 69EZ. I just have the manual for the 3.3 C2 Turbo.

The 3.3 I think runs about -20 deg +/- I about 2 deg (depending on temps) which is aggressive enough for most.

The 3.6 has a larger combustion chamber that would add to spark travel and higher compression that would speed travel. Might balance each other but Porsche may have changed the programing for all I know.

Having said that, anytime a C2T owner can pick up a used 69EZ for a favorable price one should. The are very expensive if you need one and must buy new. I fried mine once and was lucky to pick up a used one for $100 from an EFI conversion instead of something like $1300.

I suspect a programmable MSD might be a performance upgrade and believe it should work off the stock flywheel sensor but have not confirmed that to be true. Might pick up some low end response and allow for larger spark plug gaps.
Old 07-31-2010, 07:36 AM
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it took some time to find an extra EZ for my 1991 3.3 turbo . I kept finding 3.6 ez-69's with a different part number.

my extra EZ is labeled ( for a 3.3) :

BOSCH
0 227 400 676 typ 965
EZ 01
965 602 706 01
Old 07-31-2010, 08:48 AM
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